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 Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:44 am |  |
Yea, everyone's over-reacting. I went outside lots with my PC who isn't strictly a combat character.
The 'war' was more OOCly hyped than it was ICly serious, imo.
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radioactivejesus
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:49 pm | |
| grandpa wrote: |
Finally, a suggestion, specifically aimed at Staff. The reason players are so wont to shoot guns willy-nilly is the removal of coded consequences with resulted in _people getting hurt when you fuck around with guns_. Other people get shot. The code shouldn't automatically have you killing babies with every bullet, but -vNPCs should get wounded-. You want to try and bring back PK with consequences? Bring that code back. |
that code didn't do anything physical, it simply sent out flavourful echoes when you missed. Lead to some cool roleplaying about characters trying to handle the aftermath of the gunfight and come to terms with how they just shot some harmless old lady, but for the people this thread is aimed towards, it won't do anything to deter them. Also, it got pretty jarring after the first few gunfights to have my pc open fire at someone and manage to kill 2 vnpcs for every hit he landed on his target
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:09 pm | |
| radioactivejesus wrote: |
| grandpa wrote: |
Finally, a suggestion, specifically aimed at Staff. The reason players are so wont to shoot guns willy-nilly is the removal of coded consequences with resulted in _people getting hurt when you fuck around with guns_. Other people get shot. The code shouldn't automatically have you killing babies with every bullet, but -vNPCs should get wounded-. You want to try and bring back PK with consequences? Bring that code back. |
that code didn't do anything physical, it simply sent out flavourful echoes when you missed. Lead to some cool roleplaying about characters trying to handle the aftermath of the gunfight and come to terms with how they just shot some harmless old lady, but for the people this thread is aimed towards, it won't do anything to deter them. Also, it got pretty jarring after the first few gunfights to have my pc open fire at someone and manage to kill 2 vnpcs for every hit he landed on his target |
No I hated this! During the Anaxious vs Everyone war in atonement my PC ended up murdering like a dozen vnpcs portraying my character as a serial murderer. It was stupid as fuck and before you say that it was justified, it wasn't. There was a war going on, the gun battle occurred on the main battlefield of the war there wouldn't be any vnpc citizens just wandering around that area to get shot.
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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:21 pm | |
Reading comprehension is good, people. Reading comprehension is great, even. I'll quote myself, and I'll even quote the part you quoted.
| grandpa wrote: |
The code shouldn't automatically have you killing babies with every bullet, but -vNPCs should get wounded-. You want to try and bring back PK with consequences? Bring that code back. |
I sortof mentioned the whole 'it hit innocent bystanders too often. But you're shooting guns in fucking slums with tin sheet metal shanties. You fire a gun, you are a killer: that's it. The thing about a bullet is it's -going- to hit something. And in a city with paperthin plastic walls, it's going to hit a person sooner or later. Maybe you don't want to play that reality out, but...it's true. You walk up and down streets where people live, and bullets that -miss- will hit people's _homes_. It's not a confusing topic. This is where you really don't actually want the postapoc you portray yourself as wanting, Flincher. This is postapoc. This is people dying because of brutal gangs with guns. Families are gangs. Gangs lead to shootouts where innocents die -today-, in the greatest cities and civilizations of the world. Of course it happens in Rust.
With the code added and fixed, at least people would be forced to deal with it.
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| It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. | |
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radioactivejesus
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:50 pm | |
they wouldn't be forced to deal with anything because the consequences for hitting vnpcs only apply if players make the choice to react to the event. It was a nice thematic touch and I'd like to see it put back in, but it's going to do absolutely nothing to discourage PKing.
off-topic, but It would be cool to have an actual coded number of vnpcs in each sector, that can fluctuate depending on levels of violence in the area, killing vnpcs and forcing others to migrate to different sectors for safety. Then roleplayed efforts to improve infrastructure could lead to boosting the population and drawing people into the sector. The group controlling the sector could receive some raw materials each cycle depending on how many people lived in the area for them to extort
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slyviolin
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Sometimes I struggle with my demons. Other times we just fuck and have cheesecake.
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:19 am | |
I'm a bit :/ about the point on bullets tearing up slum housing like modern day bullets due to the malleability of gold. Unarmored people in the streets copping shots, sure but having them penetrate thin building walls and still having the velocity to kill, not so sure.
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:08 pm | |
| slyviolin wrote: |
| I'm a bit :/ about the point on bullets tearing up slum housing like modern day bullets due to the malleability of gold. Unarmored people in the streets copping shots, sure but having them penetrate thin building walls and still having the velocity to kill, not so sure. |
Aren't the armor piercing rounds, the most common ones, 75% iron and 25% gold? Think that'd go through paper thin walls, and people, rather efficiently. Being as they're designed to go through kevlar and plated armor, etc etc. It's why they don't do as much damage as the other two types of rounds that contain more gold and less iron, because they're not as malleable and won't turn into big tear-you-up blobs on impact.
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:17 pm | |
You are fabricating a worse case scenario grandpa. Shanties are generally built out of alion and shit. Which would slow down a gold bullet and make it less lethal. But aside from that stupid point. Why do we got to ruin characters by having them killing innocent people they would never kill just because freak accidents kill vnpcs far too often.
Its a really stupid fucking mechanic and honestly, I generally like you grandpa but I absolutely fucking positively hated you when you would take this bullshit excuse for an RP mechanic, call my pc and others murderers of innocents, and take the moral high road with your character, who happened to be involved in the same gun fights and what have you, however we never decided to legitimize a terrible mechanic for personal gains by calling you a murderer right back.
You can argue all day to justify such a stupid mechanic but at the end of the day, the majority of players will hate it which is why it shouldn't be a thing.
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:35 pm | |
I think you've gotten off topic somewhere. The debate here isn't if bullets shot in the slums will always kill someone else, it's about pking and what rules/etiquette can be put around it to encourage it to be used in a way to help the game, not make people run from the game.
I think muds always have the problem of violence escalating to insane levels at the drop of the hat. In real life how often to people die in, say, a bar fight? At some point people, likely myself included, have stopped going for realism and story telling and started going for outright wins. People kill people unnecessarily because they think/know that whoever they beat up is going to come after them later and kill them for revenge.
That said, how do you fix a problem like that?
Obviously, it's difficult, if not impossible. I think it requires a two step approach.
1) Staff needs to start talking to people that they see doing this. Start asking players ooc questions, why'd you kill him, what'd he do, was that really needed? Did it add to your character's story, their's, or someone else's? Things that make a player think about the story and, frankly, if they don't have acceptable answers to questions like that they should be punished and/or helped depending on what is missing (is it a hack and slash mentality or is it an issue of ignorance?)
2) Players need to start looking at their own interactions in light of story development, not who has the most, who lived, who died, ect...
It may be to late now to really start pushing this view, I don't know, I don't really talk to anyone that plays the game oocly. That said, if staff begins to do their part then the player base will naturally begin doing their part. Especially if the 'trouble players' are removed, punished, ect...
I say staff has to be the ones that begin to push this, because they set the tone of the game and because, at this point, the bad habits of certain players are already there and hurting the mud. I don't think it's a matter of something that staff did wrong (and I'm certainly not trying to point the finger at them). Rather, I believe, a few highly focused players that have played a little to much call of duty and are forgetting that the goal isn't to win or lose, but the journey to get to that ending and the story told along the way.
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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:32 pm | |
| slyviolin wrote: |
| I'm a bit :/ about the point on bullets tearing up slum housing like modern day bullets due to the malleability of gold. Unarmored people in the streets copping shots, sure but having them penetrate thin building walls and still having the velocity to kill, not so sure. |
Dropping a science bomb on you, sly, but modern bullets are high-density cores surrounded by resistant plating. That's exactly what Parallel's bullets are, too. Gold is used because of it being high-density. Iron is used because of it having a higher melting point and hardness. Parallel bullets are made out iron and gold, with different percentages(as Sly pointed out) to produce different desirable effects. The most common round used is armor piercing(75% iron, 25% gold). This is what almost every round in-game is. The bullet is jacketed in an iron-alloy.
| Flincher14 wrote: |
| You are fabricating a worse case scenario grandpa. |
This is the point of post-apoc. Worst-case scenarios. People dying. This is what you -want-. This is what's happening: forget "innocents killed on accident," Flincher: innocents were killed on -purpose- in this war. Bartenders and shopkeeps, random street-level dependents were shot on a whim, over ten, maybe twenty chips.
| Quote: |
| I absolutely fucking positively hated you |
I'm sorry you feel that way.
RE: Realism, I'm just going to say that when 40-some bullets are fired in a single firefight in a crowded area...people are going to die. Players don't _need_ to like that, Flincher. It's not a 'bullshit mechanic.' I've had PCs that give a fuck about human life and I've had PCs that only cared about them and theirs. Where your character falls on that spectrum is important, and great for roleplay. I can absolutely tell you that my PC has a position on that spectrum, and every single one of my PCs has had a position on it.
RE: Rules, Azmodan, I am just going to say again: rules of engagement don't work. SoI had the same "if you break them you're banned and the person you killed get rezzed" system, and it _didn't work_. Put that ontop of the fact that SoI had a dozen or more admins to our three...and you're going to find that coming up with Admin-heavy enforcement isn't something that we can work out. This is one of those rare occasions where(thanks to Chazz's wonderful, plentiful work) you can actually rely more on code-changes than you can on RPA wetwork. I agree we're slightly off-topic, though.
RE:"Players just won't roleplay this," etc., here's where I have to disagree: the problem is the playerbase as a whole doesn't trust anybody else, and isn't bothering to step out of their hideyholes. That just needs to stop. People need to get out, people need to start trusting eachother. People need to bully and fight and save the killing until it's actually -sensible-. Ten chips and wounded pride isn't a reason for murder.
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| It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. | |
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