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 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:13 pm |  |
Eh, despite the fact that I've never considered the "gold bullets" fact worth questioning (probably because I've never made a gunsmith who might be asked about it [these are things that plague me at night, because I do not actually think "Stop asking stupid questions" is a viable reply for all or even most PCs to be forced to give]), I have to say at this point that I think that someone just doing a little more detailed deciding would probably put the thing to rest, to the benefit of all of us.
It doesn't matter, as several people have pointed out, whether it makes scientific sense, it just has to make common sense. The common sense (emphasis mine!  ) is the problem here, imo.
As much as I think Edgeworth is not really going about his/her argument in a way that engenders in others the desire to satisfy it, and as much as I don't actually care about gold bullets one way or the other, I do (emphasis mine!! ) think that the problem is that we as players (and future new players) don't actually come from the moon where gold is used for bullets and not jewelry. That doesn't mean it can't work like that on the moon, it just means that as players we don't commonly think that way, and so will need to re-align our brains to consider things differently when we're playing. To that end, it would help tremendously if there were a concise but useful explanation available in the documentation (that you could refer people to and never have to have the conversation again).
Although I completely agree that the atmosphere-on-the-moon situation alone means we're playing in a soft sci-fi world, this is different, and needs to be treated differently, for two reasons:
a) it's a little tricky, but if you think about it, it actually IS common sense that we're occupying an environment that has an atmosphere and gravity (since otherwise everything we do, from walking to talking to breathing to eating, would look very very different from real life), so nobody is going to be confused by that even if they don't know how it's accomplished
b) no one actually interacts ICly with the atmospheric generators or will ever necessarily have a need for their PC to think logically about them ICly, unless the admins so choose
My (humble) advice to the staff to settle this issue: Put aside, for the moment, the annoyance of having to explain something which might seem to be mainly for the immediate benefit of people who don't seem to want to work with you, and put aside, for the moment, any internal imperative that the explanation hold much scientific water. Just write a blurb, a single paragraph that tries in good faith to provide a final word as to a) why gold is used instead of other metals and b) the place, generally, of gold within Rust society. Post it on the wiki and then refer people to it, as the final canonical word, whenever they ask in the future.
Then at least we could all know and agree on these issues and reflect them in the game world, and new players who are bound to ask the question over and over don't have to each individually spark a huge argument that tears the community in half.
Edited to add: For the record, I think that, on the whole, people wanting their PCs to think harder about the world they occupy than "that's just how it's done, I dunno" is actually a very good thing. Personally, I wish more people were inclined to do more of that, it would make my attempts to do it more fruitful when my musings about the inventor(s) of the firebreathers didn't meet with "Uh. They breathe stuff." quite so blisteringly often.
This has been a Bartleby PSA.
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| I would prefer not to. | |
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:13 pm | |
but realistically, we KNOW that you could likely make the bullets from those materials, but it would completely SHATTER game balance to have bullets made form alion, etc.
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:24 pm | |
| padweld999 wrote: |
| but realistically, we KNOW that you could likely make the bullets from those materials, but it would completely SHATTER game balance to have bullets made form alion, etc. |
But we don't, really. I mean, that seems logical, absolutely, but since it's all made up and no one has actually said what happens when you try, it's far from established that you could.
Yes, there's a certain level on which the admins are stuck in a situation of having to explain the way things are because that's how we've been doing them, but for me personally if they wanted to say "As it turns out, all of the metals in the game are actually lighter than gold, and as it turns out, the gravity generators are pretty weak, so if you use alion for bullets they just fly off in crazy directions and are wildly inaccurate, that's why we use gold" I would be fine with that.
Sure, we'd all have to start taking into account the fact that we were bouncing around a little more when we walked than we had previously realized, but that's trivial, in my opinion, when we all started out a month ago having to pretend we'd known a bunch of people who were in fact totally new to us and were familiar with a city which was in fact new to us, etc, etc.
I'm not suggesting this is a viable explanation, it's just an example.
Edited to add: I think it might actually help this situation (and others that will doubtlessly crop up in the future) a great deal if the staff felt they had the option of tweaking things that had previously been assumed to be true.
It's really an undue burden for them to have had so little time to work out how the world works and then to be stuck with what it looked like on day 1 forever.
The game world will ultimately be much more coherent and well thought out if they feel they have the freedom to change things that have already been established as true, in service of the greater continuity of the whole.
And personally, I would rather have my PC have to wake up tomorrow believing something new that he didn't believe yesterday (slightly jarring, yes) than be barred from having him delve any deeper into the universe in which he lives. Especially since, if we're all not delving any deeper already because we're afraid we'll find OOC logical inconsistencies, it's not like most character concepts are based around these things anyway.
If you happen to play "Gold-Tooth, the Bullet-Toothed Man" and they decide tomorrow that actually bullets are and have always been made of sulphur then you've got a problem, I admit. But maybe these things can be worked out on a case-by-case basis. Ultimately the Bullet-Toothed Man is probably not going to live forever and I don't think the continuity of the game world should necessarily be restricted by his existence alone. And would it be so bad if we all just agreed that his name was Sulphur-Tooth? It amounts to the same thing.
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| I would prefer not to. | |
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:49 pm | |
NO IT WILL ALWAYS BE BULLET TOOTH!11!!
Otherwise, I think that the more jarring the deviance, the more reasonable the explanation needs to be. So it's not really a case of 'Decide and be done with it'. You'd need to have a good explanation to go with your decision. Any old rug simply won't do.
That said, since we're all on board the gravity generators, you could simply go with the idea that gold's notoriously passive nature makes it the only suitable material that interacts with the gravity generators at high velocities. One doesn't even necessarily have to assume that the gravity field is lighter, just that other materials react unfavorably when accelerated to high enough speeds under the influence of the gravity generators.
I also agree with the idea that a coherent game world that is internally consistent - which may require tweaking and retconning from time to time - is better than sticking to the day 1 state of affairs out of respect for IG canon.
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Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:26 am | |
My point was that you are basing the laws of a game on things that happen RL. Gold could have a completely different make-up IG than it does in the real world, and because no PC has done anything, there's no OOC knowledge about the IG metal. Moon-gold might be perfect for bullet-making.
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creepyguyinblack
Registered
The Alpha and the Omega
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Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:12 am | |
I'm surprised that no one else has brought this up, or else I missed it somewhere. The reason lead was used for bullets historically is that it is both dense and heavy, while also being soft and malleable, so when used for small, high velocity bullets, it deforms and expands on impact, creating larger internal wounds, striking more organs, blood vessels and so on than a hard round that stays the same size.
Perhaps based on research, but in beta, staff said lead was incredibly rare or non-existant, so gold was used instead, perhaps having been imported when earth was evacuated, or just gathered from old jewelry and electronics. Gold is just 2 elements from Lead, so has very similar weight and physical properties to lead, so it makes sense in the context of round deformation.
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Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:37 am | |
^ this is a remarkably well-reasoned and thought-out post, and considering that in this timeline there could be rather large deposits of gold on the moon? Hmm, works for me.
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Holmes
Dictator in Absentia
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Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:01 am | |
The above was the justification that was used on Atonement, and I was fairly sure it had already been brought up. My bad if it wasn't. It's the canonical answer.
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Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:34 am | |
I find this to be a perfectly reasonable answer. Can we now add this somewhere so people know about this? This way we won't have gunsmiths--and I say this with no malice to the PC or the player--explain that we use gold in bullets because it is "light".
For future discussions, it would perhaps be better if we had slightly less demonisation of criticism, which in this thread went as far as downright rudeness and accusations of trolling and wishful thinking on a completely irrelevant semantic issue. We've come to a constructive conclusion and there's really no need for this. If I came over as rude myself, I apologise, as it was never my intent.
(As for the whole sci-fi vs. fantasy thing, it seems that I wasn't very clear and made it sound like some kind of insult. All I meant was that in a fantasy setting bullets made from special metals can have specific magical properties that would make them better for killing specific enemies, e.g. silver against werewolves, garlic-scented bullets against vampires, obsidian bullets against white walkers, etc.)
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Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:18 pm | |
necroing this thread cause the weaponcrafting craft delay timers don't make a lot of sense.
Why does it take as long to make a knife as a sword, but less time to make a spear or poleaxe?
to make a knife you make the blade (6 hours) Hilt (6 more hours) And put them together (6 more hours)
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I can see a sword taking almost a whole day (though I think hilts should have a shorter timer honestly)
Just thought I would point this out.
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