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To make shop keeprs lives better and fix the game economy
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Matt
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Builder

Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:19 pm      Reply with quote

The advantage of the shop is they don't have to put any kind of chips in to put items up for sale, I guess. You're right really but the auction is just so cool.

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Bartleby
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Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:20 pm      Reply with quote

supified wrote:
1> doesn't make much sense (where do the vnpcs get the chips in such an economy that the family then can take in the first place)


I can't speak to the balance issue, myself, but I will say that this is an extraordinarily good point from the logic angle. If PCs are supposed to be the richest people, the best equipped people, etc, then I would think that the general presumption would be that the vNPCs have fewer chips on average than PCs do. In which case, where DO the vNPCs get their chips for the Families to be collecting?

I also can't help wondering what is to stop Families from just minting their own additional chips. It's not as though they are made of (or backed by) anything particularly rare or valuable, as real coinage used to be.

That said, I like the idea of being primarily a barter economy with just a few chips floating around, so I'd like to see it work somehow. I wonder if there's any way of coding it so that some, if not all, of the NPC shopkeepers deal in trade? Something more or less running off the COMBINE logic?


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I would prefer not to.
Tyrant
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Benevolent Despot

Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:25 am      Reply with quote

IMO it would be an interesting bit of code to see barter work with shops. NPC shops anyways. If you want a shiny sword that costs 3000cp then you better have 3000cp worth of available goods to barter off.
Buy sword
That'll be 3000cp. Type accept to pay out. Or OFFER (object) until 3000cp has been tallied. Relevant objects only. Can't barter off 100 shredder hides at a gun shop or whatever.


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creepyguyinblack
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The Alpha and the Omega

Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:51 am      Reply with quote

For chip generation, there used to be a labor gang craft that anyone could do, gain a 6 hour timer or so, a bruise and a few chips. Also there was the arena to enter when uninjured.
I remember it eventually got overpowered and nerfed, but the barter skill could be used to hawk bundles of scrap or hides in the market.
I know theres now occasional turf quests, but it'd be nice to see more of the old turf code restored, with love and fear, that used to generate a steady chip supply for families. Along with this, perhaps anyone could do a mugging/looting craft in turf areas, with greater chance of success based on the number of people participating and some relevant stat or skill. A critical failure could spawn npc mobs to fight back, and partial failures would reduce the chips and report some of the pc's descriptions to the clanhall of the turfowner.
Adding in some or all of these would be a big help to the economy, since everyone needs a few chips, for things like kits, hard or impossible to scav materials, RPing with drugs, alcohol, tobacco and condoms. There should always be a way for someone desperate to get a couple chips when they need to.


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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie

Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:16 am      Reply with quote

Bartleby wrote:
If PCs are supposed to be the richest people, the best equipped people, etc, then I would think that the general presumption would be that the vNPCs have fewer chips on average than PCs do. In which case, where DO the vNPCs get their chips for the Families to be collecting?

Consider that you're not collecting from just one vNPC for most 'quests', but a dozen or more.


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It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
Bartleby
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Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:33 am      Reply with quote

grandpa wrote:
Consider that you're not collecting from just one vNPC for most 'quests', but a dozen or more.


That is a completely valid point. But a million times zero is still zero, and zero is what they'd have to have to have less than (or the same amount as) many PCs. Cool


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I would prefer not to.
grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie

Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:42 am      Reply with quote

Bartleby wrote:
That is a completely valid point. But a million times zero is still zero, and zero is what they'd have to have to have less that (or the same amount as) many PCs. Cool


"Wealth" isn't just defined by the change you've got on hand, of course. Sword? Richard than 90% of the populace. Gun? Same. *Two* knives? Same.

Actual, factual armor? Holy crap you're the 1%. All PCs are richer than 99% of the populace.

I think the problem isn't entirely in PCs not having enough chips, it's partially in people coming from either Atonement's endgame(no chips), or Atonement beta, where chips were constantly coming in and incredibly easy to acquire. We're all better at surviving, but we're all crappier at not spending chips like we're getting more tomorrow.


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It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
kel
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Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:47 am      Reply with quote

One word. Patience.

Right now, it's all new. Everyone started with the same amount of chips. Bought starting crap. had some left over to spend in game. Some who will spend, some who will hold on to.

A few days later (we're not even two weeks in) they introduced a coded way for the Families to produce coded chips. This gives them some spending money. Right now, they're mostly holding on to it as well, because chips are still rare. But, they tend to have enough people that they often need to outsource. This introduces some chips into the independent community.

Now, the longer the game runs, the more chips will be introduced into the PC economy. Both from these turf things, and from from new PCs coming into the game with their starting money. And, I think it's a fair bet that chips will be leaving the PC economy at a much slower rate. There are only a handful of things that -need- chips, which will also take them out of circulation. One being the NPC shops, the other being someone dying with chips that.. uh.. I don't even know, does the body decompose and eat up its gear? Or is it there forever. Oh, and shanty rental. Which is mostly classified as a luxury.

In either case, just give it a little time. There are already far more chips being tossed around, than there were 7 days, 1 week, ago. If you look at what some independent shopkeepers are doing, wheeling, and dealing, some of them are clearly tapped into the chop market. And in another week? There'll be more chips around. And in another? Even more chips.

And, to the original topic... shopkeepers are going to make absolute bank. Because they will always have an advantage over people doing business only by word of mouth, or only via the auction. They'll be the go-to people. And I have a feeling that any of them who survive for the first few months are going to end up loaded.

So, take a step back. Take a deep breath. Give the game another couple/few weeks to settle in. I believe that you'll find many of the concerns taking care of themselves. (much as the 1st weeks "indie food shortage" already has. mostly)


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supified
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:56 am      Reply with quote

Kel, good response.

The problem is, as I see it, that npc shop keepers have things we need and because of code limitations, and lack of a coder, they only trade in chips, where as they ought to trade in barter.

Another suggestion I would have. Make a shop that only buys and doesn't sell and specifically only buys finished goods, but not at a good price.

In practice this shop would be like a code work around middle man for the lack of barter options available with the other npc merchants, but would also give pcs a way (who can make stuff anyway) To turn finished goods into chips to buy the things they actually need but can't be really acquired other ways.

Just another thought, and one doable with current code.


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padweld999
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:39 am      Reply with quote

don't quote me, but we may get a coder sometime in the near-ish future, and that would help a TON. The suggestion for an NPC shop that just buys at a very low price isn't a bad one, though. I just worry about it being abused. Are there any crafts that punch out finished products without a lot of extra supplies or effort?

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