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Clarifications, RE: Families
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Holmes
Dictator in Absentia



Post Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:49 pm      Reply with quote

I'm going to say now that griefing a clan in a manner that strikes me as OOCly-motivated is not going to be looked on very happily from above. Please further keep in mind that this isn't the ship, or even 2.0, and bases have at least some number of vNPCs wandering around.

The fact of the matter is that the three families control Rust, and it is in their best interests to retain that control, which means not letting skilled members easily flee for whoever is making the best offer.

That is not to say that anything is stopping members of families from attempting to jump ship to another family, for whatever reason they desire, but they should do that with the understanding that their former clanleader has every right to be violently angry.

This is one of those cases where integrity of the setting takes precedent over any single person's fun, particularly when the problem is something as IC as 'I don't like my clanlead'.


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kog
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Post Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:16 am      Reply with quote

I certainly don't see anything OOC about 'griefing' a clan that is refusing you the right to leave. If you're trapped, and you really don't like them, there's not a whole lot of incentive to NOT be subversive. My point is more that there is going to be a direct clash between the wants of the clanlead, and the wants of the person. There's not really a graceful way to handle it, either. That, and paired with the number of people who seem to be ex-<gang>, there's kind of a disconnect.

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Holmes
Dictator in Absentia



Post Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:25 am      Reply with quote

There's a difference between being subversive and griefing.

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Tyrael
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Post Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:30 am      Reply with quote

I tend to see the Families as being like, well a family. Sometimes things are good, sometimes they are bad, you just have to stick through it all. Then again that's just me, and I tend to create my own fun IC regardless of which fellow/gally is in charge. However I can understand some people might like to throw a spanner in the works when everything turns against them. However, it should be asked of yourself if a person IRL would do that? People will grit their teeth and bear unhappy things for much longer than they will suddenly take subversive and violent action. If you really hate how things are going, I'd say either retire, or find some way to enjoy yourself still IC regardless of the clan status.

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Bartleby
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Post Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:48 am      Reply with quote

Tyrael wrote:
I tend to see the Families as being like, well a family. Sometimes things are good, sometimes they are bad, you just have to stick through it all.


This is pretty complicated, and although it might seem to the lucky majority like a universal no-brainer, I can say that in my neck of society I've encountered many more than a few people who IRL are to some degree (or completely) estranged from their families of origin -- sometimes by their own choice, sometimes not. Family is not a magical forever, even given bonds of genetics and experience and many years spent striving together. And IRL "family" is much less likely to hunt you down and shoot you than they are to try and work things out.

Personally I view IC Family as being more like a gang, which does operate very much like a RL family with similar systems of hierarchy, mutual interdependence, and communalism. But the distinction, for me, is that because gangs are open systems in which one does not typically originate, the definition of membership does not hinge on something passive that one can't control like having been born, but rather on conformity. There are any number of circumstances that might cause a person to no longer be willing/able to conform, in which case both they and the Family to which they belong have some difficult choices to make.

Obviously if you're the child of Family elite you're in something of a pickle should conformity become a problem for you, but I think that the existence of one particularly prominent indie in Rust rather demonstrates that even that is hardly insurmountable.


Tyrael wrote:
Then again that's just me, and I tend to create my own fun IC regardless of which fellow/gally is in charge. ... If you really hate how things are going, I'd say either retire, or find some way to enjoy yourself still IC regardless of the clan status.


Again, way more complicated that that, imo. Firstly some issues aren't IC at all, I don't think people should be encouraged/forced to retire before being given other options for ways of dealing with OOC issues in particular.

But even for IC issues, I think retirement is always a last resort. People put a lot of time, effort and emotional energy into their characters (and I'm not even talking, myself, about things that appear on one's character sheet such as skills, crafts, etc), and asking them to give up that character rather than giving them the option of finding a (preferably IC) solution to Family incompatibility seems sort of callous, or at the very least flippant, to me. Now, I personally think that people should also be willing to play through the IC consequences of whatever solution seems to be demanded by the IC situation, but I also think those consequences shouldn't be 99.9% likely to lead to PC death, either, since that amounts to the same sort of thing as requiring retirement.

I don't think it's really fair to suggest that people who find themselves in a problematic situation, either ICly or OOCly, are necessarily people who can't "make their own fun." The system is actually sort of difficult in the way it's set up, given that it's quite easy to blindly app into a situation you know nothing about and then find yourself glued to a group of players and a group of PCs that you have no control over. This can produce quite interesting IC situations that are fun to play through, but it can also produce difficult and unfun OOC situations that are hard to remedy. This is compounded, of course, by the fact that it's not at all easy to spend the majority of one's time interacting with PCs outside of one's Family.

Tyrael wrote:
However I can understand some people might like to throw a spanner in the works when everything turns against them. However, it should be asked of yourself if a person IRL would do that? People will grit their teeth and bear unhappy things for much longer than they will suddenly take subversive and violent action.


This I more or less agree with. I think some IC situations could arise in which it made perfectly logical sense to sabotage one's own Family, but I think those would be quite rare indeed, and likely have disastrous consequences for the deed doer. It is much more likely that one would remain quietly (or loudly) unhappy for quite a long time, because to get to the point of be willing to be actively subversive, one would probably have to be desperate enough to be suicidal, or at least very close to it.

It's of course much easier for people to embrace suicidality on the part of their PCs than to be willing to embrace it in RL, and I think it's good to remind people that just because you know you can always make another character, that doesn't mean your character would really welcome death easily.

Ideally if a player very much wanted out of a Family they would do what they could to work it out ICly, whether that meant trying to improve the Family themselves, or trying to finagle their way to an ICly safe and civil, if not amiable, exit. But I also think clan leads should be willing to work with players who are unhappy, as much as IC allows, since I personally think that one of the responsibilities of a clan lead is to look after their players, as much as it is to look after the characters they play.


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I would prefer not to.
Tyrael
Registered



Post Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:28 am      Reply with quote

I can see your point Bartleby, about the differences between family, Family, and gangs. I think I agree with you in reflection. The only thing I wish to say is I never meant to critizise others over making fun on their own, just that usually I am pretty good at making it for myself.

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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie

Post Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:42 pm      Reply with quote

RE: "I am unhappy with my clan," we need to look at this two levels.

I am unhappy with my clan ICly:
No you aren't. Your PC is. And there's nothing more OOCly beautiful than a miserable IC situation. This is where characters are made--not in typing up a background for some admin to skim over and hit accept, but in situations that people are going to see whether you like it or not, providing nasty little cracks and holes and wounds for horrible people to shove their dirty little fingers in to make your PC hurt, and for lovely, wonderful, beautiful people to make your PC feel whole again.

I am unhappy with my clan OOCly:
This is an actual issue, but I think it shouldn't be brought up ICly but OOCly. If you're unhappy OOCly, mudmail/PM your clanlead. Discuss it. Bring it up on the clan forums.


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wilde
Administrator



Over Emote-tional

Post Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:48 pm      Reply with quote

This.

Also, if you're not happy OOC and don't want to talk to your clan lead or post on the forums, you're more than welcome to contact staff@parallelrpi.com


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Seer
Registered



Post Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:57 am      Reply with quote

Bartleby wrote:
As for leaving Families, I am fully in favor of the canonical version of the situation presented here, with the small caveat that meta-concerns sometimes create a situation in which a player isn't particularly happy or well-suited to be playing among a group of other players, and going through the proper IC channels should (imo) allow that player the opportunity (as much as is possible, given any IC situations that might exist) to play elsewhere if they so wish. This is mainly an issue because of how separated the clans are from one another, and the huge proportion of one's time one necessarily spends playing with one's clanmates. That and the fact that you never really know what OOC situation you're apping into until you get there.


This. I get why it should be discouraged from an IC perspective, but from an OOC one, one never knows what a certain clan plays like. I'd rather a game where people didn't feel like they had to suicide because after entering play they realized that in practice they don't jive with their crew. Ideally they could find an out which isn't simply aim;shoot shoot shoot or walking out to meet the first lagato with wide arms.

Edited to add: The game will always be played from an individual perspective. People don't tend to keep doing something they loathe. Like logging into a game where they can't stand the people they're supposed to be playing primarily with. I understand that this thread serves to say bollocks to them if they dislike it as the setting overrules their personal enjoyment.


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Tony
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:08 am      Reply with quote

At a glance (meaning I didn't read the entire thread yet), this is something that just isn't possible without some kind of metagame assistance. Clan leads can't hunt down deserters, they're far too busy with clan leading.

Grandpa's on the right track, play your pc, not the other way around. But if this is meant to be canon like Wilde says on the front page then there must be a metagame enforcement of it. Clan security doesn't have time for that crap.


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