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WorkerDrone
Registered
Duke Attitude
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 Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:12 am |  |
Please don't, and please don't ask.
I actually don't want this thread to be locked, if there's more to discuss. If it does get locked, and I think of possible solutions to the ever present problem of "not enough ways for more fortunate clans/parts of the player base to get better skills", I'll probably just end up opening a new thread.
Inching the line between flaming and debate doesn't improve the quality of the discussion.
More on topic:
I sorely hate the idea of people not being able to improve on their own in some way, but to not be able to improve unless they're gigantic twinks/have lots of players playing at the same time? Rings unacceptable to me. Only reason why I'd defend the sewers remaining as they are.
If a new zone or a revamped and improved zone, maybe with new mobs that are more dangerous than squicks but less dangerous than crocs popped up, or even a modified, tweak number of spawns for crocodiles in the sewer as it stands? If you can't do the supposed middle-tier zone with six people, something is really wrong, and you're cut out from a lot of shit.
If we're gonna focus on the "Stuff Acquisition" part of the game, allow everyone to play on their own terms, not any one person's.
If we're going to build up infrastructure to help focus on RP and less of "stuff", then needless to say I think most of us will have different priorities other than skill grinding, and honestly there should be a way to skill grind to stay competitive anyway.
Just gonna play half-way devil's advocate here, since I don't always agree with everything players like Matt or Wirs say, but can understand the points they're making? It's absolutely a terrible idea to remove a way for others to remain competitive with the more fortunate of the player base. Why?
Because this is a game, and we play it to have fun, and if competing is something that is found fun, or bullying others into doing what you want, just as an example, other people should be able to do the same thing back to you.
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:01 am | |
| Matt wrote: |
| Sewers should just collapse. The mind set that you have to grind your skillz up before being useful etc etc on trips is annoying. Things are supposed to be dangerous.. and grinding up your combat skillz in the sewers is pretty meh. Not that I don't do it... have to stay competitive. I'd just rather it not be an option at all. |
Why?
| WorkerDrone wrote: |
| If a new zone or a revamped and improved zone, maybe with new mobs that are more dangerous than squicks but less dangerous than crocs popped up, or even a modified, tweak number of spawns for crocodiles in the sewer as it stands? If you can't do the supposed middle-tier zone with six people, something is really wrong, and you're cut out from a lot of shit. |
I would be perfectly fine with some kind of natural progression of danger. Again, the only reason I disagree with grandpa on the idea of dragging the sewer cap from Talented-Adroit down to Familiar is because RPP roles can start the game at Talented-Adroit, and I feel it would be unfair to give RPP roles an advantage that isn't surmountable by solo play.
I do not wish for this to be interpreted as saying the intent behind those pushing for a lower cap or removal of the sewers is to achieve this kind of end. At least in grandpa's case, and overall, really, I think, it is far from the intent. It's just a side affect of what would happen if such a change was made. A side affect which has occasionally been shown to already be engendered naturally by the game mechanics with OOC-motivated things like tanking, et cetera.
In at least grandpa's case, while I'd be loathe to put words in his mouth, I think his concern is more that even throwing yourself into dangerous situations does little to bring skills past adroit. It seems like he would rather see a natural progression, where you could get to say familiar by sologrinding then adroit through live combat.
I don't think this would be a bad thing. However, I think the progression needs to be carefully aligned and paced with starting skills, so that the solo-grinding cap matches the starting cap, and gains afterwards come as icing on the cake. That's how it -should-, ostensibly, already be. But for a variety of reasons, it doesn't seem like even dangerous situations do much to bring characters past Adroit.
| WorkerDrone wrote: |
If we're gonna focus on the "Stuff Acquisition" part of the game, allow everyone to play on their own terms, not any one person's.
If we're going to build up infrastructure to help focus on RP and less of "stuff", then needless to say I think most of us will have different priorities other than skill grinding, and honestly there should be a way to skill grind to stay competitive anyway. |
Agreed.
Personally, I would choose to emphasize the latter. While it took me a while to really see it, it's hitting a point where I can say with relative confidence that the vast majority of players (clan-dependent, as they each have different cultures of play) seem to be stuff-focused. Funnily enough, despite my grinding habits, I am -very- RP-focused. I actually get -aggravated- on a regular basis that people don't put more effort into RP. Numerous times, I've seen people completely disregard very serious RP situations in favor of quashing conflict and peoples' RP to get straight back to the acquiring of stuff. I don't know why it's this way, or if people are just jaded or burnt out on actually treating IC events seriously, or what.
And no, before anybody goes there, if you think the above was a reference to a specific person, you're very, very far off the mark. It's a systemic problem, not an individual one.
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:27 am | |
| WorkerDrone wrote: |
| If we're gonna focus on the "Stuff Acquisition" part of the game, allow everyone to play on their own terms, not any one person's. |
+1
Sorry, I'd elaborate more but it's kind of exceeded my hostility threshold.
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| I would prefer not to. | |
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:10 pm | |
I think the issue that's turning the discussion away from sensibility and towards hostility is probably one of perspective, and looking back over posts, I'm beginning to see a bit more of the other side of the issue, so I'm going to try to kind of break it down on a point-by-point basis.
Reasons why the Adroit cap on the sewers is too high:
- For all intents and purposes, even live, dangerous situations won't take you past Adroit, and if they do, it takes forever and is unlikely to bring you much past Master. So the cap on Adroit from squicks doesn't actually -mean- a whole lot.
- Because Adroit is about as high as you'll see from most PCs, the notion of being able to get there, or even to Talented, from squicks -is- kind of silly and unrealistic.
Reasons why capping the sewers would cause problems:
- It's possible to have upjumped skills from RPP to start out the game with high talented. Also a no-danger situation. Allowing PCs with longevity behind the player to start with skills that can't be matched through solo effort by other PCs creates a diminishing effect on the relevance of PCs played by newer players, which is overall a toxic thing.
- Limiting solo play puts more emphasis on the larger group scavs, which people have already expressed a great deal of dissatisfaction with, and puts the control over who gets opportunity to skillup yet more in the hands of who types 'kill lizard' first and who gets to tank what.
What I'm really getting out of this, is that the problem -isn't- the sewers. The problem is that the process of progression is neither fluid nor naturally graduated. It's kind of a rush to Adroit, through sewer-grinding or RPP or longevity, and then... nothing. A lot of nothing. For a long time. So where a PC can get to Adroit in a month, the PC who's BEEN Adroit for three months kind of has a right to feel shorted.
So... what's the solution? There are really a couple of options here that -don't- create a toxic situation vis a vis RPP roles.
1) Rebalancing of mobs, reduction of starting skill values, lowering of sewer cap to familiar. That would make talented and adroit the danger-intensive progression zone, sewer grinding would still be somewhat useful, and there wouldn't be an issue with RPP roles, because they'd start at high familiar instead of high talented.
2) Increase to the rate of skill gain from dangerous situations for people with Adroit+ combat skills. This opens back up some opportunity for growth beyond that that can be obtained from sewer grinding.
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grandpa
Registered
Entrenched Oldbie
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:04 pm | |
Correcting a fallacious argument here:
| crayon wrote: |
| It's possible to have upjumped skills from RPP to start out the game with high talented. |
It's possible to start with one upjumped skill from RPP to start the game out at high talented. One, singular.
At 5RPP, which has happened twice(I believe) in the history of Atonement/Parallel, you can currently enter IG with(assuming a PC purely designed for melee combat):
Dodge: Familiar(high?) Deflect: Familiar(high?) Dual-Wield: Talented(high) Sole-Wield: Talented(Low) Bludgeon: Talented(Low) and Brawling: Talented(Low). Replace brawling with a firearm, and a weaponstyle with a crafting skill as you wish.
This is for 5RPP. You can't hit high talented until 2RPP, and then you are only able to start with one high talented for the rest of forever, as far as the system seems to(and ought to) work. I don't think it's unfair that at 2RPP you come in better than someone who never puts themselves at risk and fights five-inch lizards for however long. It doesn't matter how long.
I've come into game with a 0RPP random-genned character with dual wield, smallblade, pistol, and some other skill so insignificant I've -forgotten- it. Probably brawling. The game isn't any easier with RPP boosts from skills, and it's not terribly much easier with RPP boosts to stats. It's significant, but not enough to instantly make that PC "rule the world." How your PC acts/the personality/connections you make will always mean -more- for power than your coded skills or stats. That's what makes a Frank(Wilmington), or Black/Thirteens, Josies, or Lang Ryans, or Minas and Mad Jackies; you don't need to be Bruce to have influence. That's why Faust was Faust and Blanket was -not- Faust, despite being the best combatant in the Arr-Eff. Skills are not everything.
TL;DR(or you weren't around for those PCs): The code isn't what matters and RPP aren't what make you amazing, but if it's brought up I'm going to point out how ridiculous it is that people anywhere near as many(quantitative) skill-ups fighting 5 inch lizards as they do fighting 200-pound monstrosities, and that they can get anywhere near as skilled as the people who are fighting those.
Yes, the game sucks when there's no middleground, but that is my -point-: there's no -need- for a middleground when you can get to talented(or adroit) from fighting five-inch, ~one pound lizards. Cap it at familiar and let's see this new section of the gameworld designed for smaller groups. And maybe fix the Metro.
| wirsindallein wrote: |
| It really feels, at least from some of the comments in here, like people are trying to maintain coded superiority. |
Enough for me.
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| It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. | |
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Holmes
Dictator in Absentia
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:55 pm | |
Concerns noted. If any of you know C or C++, you're welcome to offer to help me completely revise how skills raise and work.
Otherwise, we'll see what I can do without that.
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