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Cybernetics/RPP: Side-discussion
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cruelcore
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Post Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:02 pm      Reply with quote

grandpa wrote:
Roadhawk wrote:
A growing divide in power levels also forces people to quit.


All this system is as-is is an extension of what the RPP system already is at its core. Any problems you have with that are just as valid when leveled at RPP as a whole. And like Crayon said, maybe it's not the best system...but it's the only one we've got.


We're going in circles but I think it's worth pointing out the system as it stands only uses RPP for OOC reasons. This suggestion offers IC advantages for higher RPP players imo. Many of the other posters seem to think the same. You're the only person who seems to think stats aren't IC. I'm not even 100% you genuinely believe that- but just argue for it anyway to get this idea implemented.


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Aken
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:20 pm      Reply with quote

Can't say I quite see the problem with the Lost Tales of Beleriand style set-up, if you place certain constraints on it, such that such a boost cannot be applied until 30 days after character creation (so that Terrans aren't immediately on a par with Martians), and there's a 30 day gap between each possible boost of that fashion, and as long as stat totals are kept to 81/82 total, maximum (91/92, counting the hidden aura stat). Let it represent physical or mental conditioning, or what have you. Kind of off the point of the thread, but it would just be my personal preference -- I just sort of envisage obtainable cybernetics resulting in a bunch of jarring oddness in-game. I don't feel terribly strongly one way or the other, really.

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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie

Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:32 pm      Reply with quote

cruelcore wrote:
grandpa wrote:
Roadhawk wrote:
A growing divide in power levels also forces people to quit.


All this system is as-is is an extension of what the RPP system already is at its core. Any problems you have with that are just as valid when leveled at RPP as a whole. And like Crayon said, maybe it's not the best system...but it's the only one we've got.


We're going in circles but I think it's worth pointing out the system as it stands only uses RPP for OOC reasons. This suggestion offers IC advantages for higher RPP players imo. Many of the other posters seem to think the same. You're the only person who seems to think stats aren't IC. I'm not even 100% you genuinely believe that- but just argue for it anyway to get this idea implemented.


This is why this is a sidethread and a sideshow: everyone's entrenched, nobody gives a damn about the words being said. What you're failing to see is that I'm taking a hardline stance that's conservative as fuck because I have no leverage when it comes to RPP and don't care to see a system I have zero effect on hurt the chances of something players could have fun with. I literally don't care about the RPP issue, I'm just adopting the most conservative stance possible to support the system we already have.

I've restated my argument to more accurately reflect what I meant/believed, so please don't use the old one that was written sloppily. It's soundbiting. And recognize that if I was "trying to get this implemented," wouldn't it be 'smarter' for me to make Populist appeals rather than supporting the status quo?

'Trying to get this idea implemented' is just me trying to add something multiple admins have stated they wanted in the game while reducing the workload it would require for them to produce it.

Now, to address your argument, Re: OOC reasons.

Quote:
We're going in circles but I think it's worth pointing out the system as it stands only uses RPP for OOC reason


RPP is used to create titans, or cyborgs. These things aren't OOC. These things are IC.


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crayon
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:04 pm      Reply with quote

grandpa wrote:

Quote:
We're going in circles but I think it's worth pointing out the system as it stands only uses RPP for OOC reason


RPP is used to create titans, or cyborgs. These things aren't OOC. These things are IC.


Grandpa. Baby. You know I love you. But... that's ridiculously disingenuous.

He didn't say RPP was used to create OOC things. He said that the system as it stands only uses RPP for OOC reasons. Which is true.

However. I can completely see why you would take a hardline stance on the issue just to work with what we've got to get something done. But I think the issue that comes up is that any system implemented with a flawed foundation is going to be, ultimately, flawed.

The difference between RPP being used to create titans/martians/calistans versus cybernetics becomes significantly more relevant with the introduction of IG cybersurgery. One doesn't -become- a race. It's just what their character is. From the beginning. Cybernetics are different. These are acquired through IC means. IC efforts. IG events. IC necessities. The stat boosts (or detriments goddamnit!) they give or don't give should be determined not by the amount of RPP they throw around but by the quality of the cyberware, cybersurgeon, and a hefty dash of luck.

But this doesn't mean that I couldn't get behind a system built around the RPP system we're kind of stuck on. It just means I'd rather we -not-. I don't think it's -necessary- to stick cybernetics to the system we've had thus far, if they're implemented in-game. And doing so would hurt immersion.

Granted. For starting a new character that -already has- cybernetics that can be acquired IG, I would keep the RPP system in-play. Because that's different than acquiring them IG. (Like skills. Unless you want to start charging RPP for skillbumps too.)

Aken wrote:
Can't say I quite see the problem with the Lost Tales of Beleriand style set-up, if you place certain constraints on it, such that such a boost cannot be applied until 30 days after character creation (so that Terrans aren't immediately on a par with Martians), and there's a 30 day gap between each possible boost of that fashion, and as long as stat totals are kept to 81/82 total, maximum (91/92, counting the hidden aura stat). Let it represent physical or mental conditioning, or what have you. Kind of off the point of the thread, but it would just be my personal preference -- I just sort of envisage obtainable cybernetics resulting in a bunch of jarring oddness in-game. I don't feel terribly strongly one way or the other, really.


So what you're telling me. Is that in a thread full of people arguing against the RPP-for-power mechanic. Full of people arguing completely against power mechanics in general (seriously guys, every mechanism to make a character stronger does not qualify as twinking, there's a difference between actively putting effort into raising skills and completely ignoring RP to do it). You're suggesting a direct RPP-for-stats upgrade that cuts RP entirely out of the equation. Completely ignores anything even remotely IC. Takes the system and KEEPS it 100% OOC. And just makes the RPP-for-power mechanic WORSE. And you don't see what's wrong with that?



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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie

Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:38 pm      Reply with quote

Sorry, but I cannot and will not ever get behind a system that takes player effort/skill, then chooses to roll a random dice on whether that PC is codedly playable or not anymore.

Go roll a 1d6. On a 5-6, you get a +2. 33% chance is a hefty bit of luck. On a 1-4, your PC is now at -2 sum. Your great int just became good. Your good will just became average. Your superhuman str now puts you at peak.

"A hefty bit of luck" is the worst quality I have ever seen suggested be added to this. It's shitty design.

RE: Disingenuous, no, I'm not trying to be, despite being accused as such about 2-3 times so far.

What is disingenuous is every single attempt at 'productivity' in the side thread that doesn't see an extra post in the main thread.

Shame on you both, Cruelcore and Crayon.

ETA: A dozen+ posts between you about RPP, and only one of help/feedback in the main thread where all the actual work is.


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crayon
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:52 pm      Reply with quote

grandpa wrote:
Sorry, but I cannot and will not ever get behind a system that takes player effort/skill, then chooses to roll a random dice on whether that PC is codedly playable or not anymore.

Go roll a 1d6. On a 5-6, you get a +2. 33% chance is a hefty bit of luck. On a 1-4, your PC is now at -2 sum. Your great int just became good. Your good will just became average. Your superhuman str now puts you at peak.

"A hefty bit of luck" is the worst quality I have ever seen suggested be added to this. It's shitty design.

RE: Disingenuous, no, I'm not trying to be, despite being accused as such about 2-3 times so far.

What is disingenuous is every single attempt at 'productivity' in the side thread that doesn't see an extra post in the main thread.

Shame on you both, Cruelcore and Crayon.

ETA: A dozen+ posts between you about RPP, and only one of help/feedback in the main thread where all the actual work is.


I was implying more like, if the operation fails, the implant gets rejected outright and the grievous or horrific injury is not fixed (because again, I think most of the time cybernetics should be coming into play as a treatment for permanent stat or HP loss from grievous and horrific injuries, keep that in context).

Stat loss is perfectly compatible for maiming. Luck applies to death, which certainly makes characters unplayable? I'm not entirely sure where your argument is. As for posting in the main thread... I've actually been working on a fully-fleshed proposal myself, in a notepad. While properly shamed at the lack of offering alternatives alongside criticism, it's not, I assure you, for lack of work on an alternative.

FOR SHAME, GRANDPA.


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grandpa
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:57 pm      Reply with quote

crayon wrote:
Is perfectly compatible for maiming. Luck applies to death, which certainly makes characters unplayable? I'm not entirely sure where your argument is.


Which is entirely my point; I think your uncertainty continues, and you don't actually understand the delicate balance of coded power you're unintentionally trying to upset here.

And I don't think "an entire system being thrown out carte blanche without any feedback" is any sort of feedback or assistance to the project at all.

In short, this is likely what you're going to do:


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wilde
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:10 pm      Reply with quote

I've always thought there should be a ways of spending RPP in game. It's always seemed counter intuitive to only be able to spend RPP on a new PC- in my opinion, we should be encouraging character development, not necessarily just encouraging people to make new PCs.

I think being able to gain cybernetics in game would provide some great opportunities for interesting role play. In terms of people being power hungry and whatever, I don't personally see what the difference is for people spending RPP in game or starting a new PC with it.

I have a few thoughts on the RPP side of things but just want to say first that it's worth remembering that 2RPP + 2RPP doesn't actually equal 4RPP. There are plenty of people who will get 2RPP, spend it and work their way back up to 2RPP, but might not ever get 4RPP.

Anyway, my personal suggestion for a way to do this would be this:

-You need to have the number of RPP required by the current cybernetics rules. Eg. 4RPP for Major cybernetics.

-You spend the difference between what you've already spent and what you want. So a normal, unmodified terran would cost 4RPP, a titan would cost 2 RPP.

-Stat boosts would be retroactive and would have to be appropriate to the implants/have a reasonable explanation.

-No retroactive skill boosts (ie. role boosts)

To clarify: Cybernetics require the number of RPP needed for the boosts but cost the difference between your current character's RPP cost and the level you want.

This seems pretty fair to me. Thoughts?

crayon wrote:
The stat boosts (or detriments goddamnit!) they give or don't give should be determined not by the amount of RPP they throw around but by the quality of the cyberware, cybersurgeon, and a hefty dash of luck.


I'm really against RPP expenditure that results in uncertainty or permanent bad things, outside of the current stat minuses that exist. People put a lot of time and effort into gaining RPP and if it's being spent, they should get what they pay for.

I'm also not comfortable making cybernetics attainable without RPP for several reasons. Firstly, under the current RPP system, cybernetics require RPP to maintain a level of rarity and also because of the stat boost that comes with it. Basically, the more RPP you have, the more we trust you not to abuse higher stats. As we currently have no intention of changing the RPP system, it'd be helpful if the rest of this thread looked at the topic from that angle.

As a bit of a side note, I don't agree with cybernetics that are purely cosmetic. They're an RPP race for the reasons mentioned above. Having cosmetic cybernetics goes entirely against this. As another, I wouldn't want to offer infravision as an option for cybernetics for the same reason we took NVGs out of the game.

Lastly, while discussion is great, it'd be even greater if you could all be a bit nicer to each other. I appreciate that everybody has an opinion they want to get across, but please do it politely.


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crayon
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:43 pm      Reply with quote

wilde wrote:
I'm also not comfortable making cybernetics attainable without RPP for several reasons. Firstly, under the current RPP system, cybernetics require RPP to maintain a level of rarity and also because of the stat boost that comes with it. Basically, the more RPP you have, the more we trust you not to abuse higher stats. As we currently have no intention of changing the RPP system, it'd be helpful if the rest of this thread looked at the topic from that angle.


This angle certainly changes the game, and after some private chat with grandpa I entirely see where he's coming from.

Here's my argument in a nutshell, however.

ICly, cybernetics are supposed to be obtained in the vast majority of cases when two circumstances are met:

1) Somebody has sustained a crippling injury or ailment that can't be remedied without cybernetic implantation or replacement of parts of the body.

2) The person has the resources or connections necessary to receive such.

If the first criteria is treated as being met IG by horrific or grievous wounds, as I would propose in the sort of system that, were I the game designer, I would be putting forward...

And then the second criteria is met IG by... having the resources to afford the cybersurgery and the connections to find skilled people willing to do it for you...

Where does the -entirely- OOC requirement of RPP come into play?

If I have 0 RPP, sustain a horrific injury to the eye, am incredibly resourceful and satisfy all of the IG, IC, requirements...

Why shouldn't I be able to get a cybereye, where a person with 2 RPP could?

HOWEVER, given that staff has several much higher priorities on the table, I don't see any reason why RPP wouldn't work for in-game acquisition as an interim solution, considering that a system centering around a remodel of how really bad injuries work would require a significantly greater investiture of time and effort by a busy, under-appreciated, under-manned, and over-worked staff.


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crayon
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:29 pm      Reply with quote

In response to the contentious dispute of statloss, HP loss et cetera...

The sort of system I would personally be putting forward is...

Giving horrific and grievous injuries a chance of incurring a permanent stat-loss injury type. Not unlike the way in which massive damages on gear leave permanent damages even after fixed.

Then having cybernetics be the -fix- to those sort of injuries. If successful they may get rid of the statloss. Or they may fail and be rejected requiring a second attempt. Or they may be successful and provide a stat boost along with the stat loss. But again, this kind of system would be infinitely more difficult to implement than what Grandpa's trying to (nobly) put into play for the interim.

The difference here, really, is that Grandpa's looking at an efficient interim solution for IG cyber, and I'm looking at a long-term, realistic (hah!), balanced, and IC way to handle it regardless of difficulty of implementation.

Which is to say, we're really talking about different things, which is why we're getting so frustrated.

Grandpa's talking about what to do with what we have, and I'm talking about what we should have to do what we (arguably) should.


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