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Hyriana
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Post Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:30 pm      Reply with quote

It wasn't mentioned, but I'm curious what the status of throwing weapons is? From what I understand, they basically do 0 damage if the target has any kind of armor (natural or otherwise) which makes them useless for anything besides winging at rat or squick. I think slingshots are also effectively 'thrown' weapons as well in this case.

I don't know that they should necessarily be extremely buffed, since a light hunting weapon has a place (and they don't 'waste' any actual skill besides aim, which firearms also use) but does anyone see any big changes that should be done with them?


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irkallia
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f--- you that's my fish and i'm having sex with it

Post Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:09 pm      Reply with quote

That's because lodging thrown weapons caused them to be codedly replaced with a new version every time they were lodged, so that you could get a brand new weapon just by lodging it in something and getting it back, or upgrade from alion to titon by virtue of the variable system's randomization. Don't know how that one's going to get fixed.

My big gripe with the system is how biased it is toward skillgain for dual-wielders as opposed to sole-wielders. Sole-wielders, and -particularly- sole-wielders wielding polearms, are and always have been severely gimped in skillgain simply because, where your sword + shield fighter is doing (I'm making up numbers) 5 hits per minute, getting 5 chances to gain, and your sword + shortsword dual-wielder is getting, say, 9 hits per minute, your polearm sole-wielder is getting... maybe 2. There's no system of compensation for this; a chance is a chance is a chance, and if you get less of them over a period of time you will gain less skills, for a given intelligence, and that isn't really very fair. Sole-wielders aren't supposed to be stupider just by virtue of hitting more slowly, nor is the skill supposed to be more difficult than swords, but that's how it comes off.

As to hide, well. Do we need to ask what's wrong with a command that can be used by anyone at any time for a 100% guaranteed invisibility cloak against wildlife? Razz


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Hyriana
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:20 pm      Reply with quote

irkallia wrote:
That's because lodging thrown weapons caused them to be codedly replaced with a new version every time they were lodged, so that you could get a brand new weapon just by lodging it in something and getting it back, or upgrade from alion to titon by virtue of the variable system's randomization. Don't know how that one's going to get fixed.


I don't think I've ever seen this happen IG. Not sure if that means it as removed or just the things you actually use 'throw' at aren't big enough to have them get lodged in?

Touching on the other point, I've always heard that trying to use sole wield at all without massive strength is flat out not worth it. Or trying to wield just one weapon in one hand nothing in the other as an evasion person. I guess because the latter gives a dodge boost, which doesn't help in weapon combat?

That and it's always been said that sole-wielding a two-hander is underutilized and is actually as good as dual-wield? Anyone know the reason this is true?


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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
crayon
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:28 pm      Reply with quote

Irklepants wrote:
That's because lodging thrown weapons caused them to be codedly replaced with a new version every time they were lodged, so that you could get a brand new weapon just by lodging it in something and getting it back, or upgrade from alion to titon by virtue of the variable system's randomization. Don't know how that one's going to get fixed.


This sounds like something that would be true, and is probably a variable thing.

Irklepants wrote:
My big gripe with the system is how biased it is toward skillgain for dual-wielders as opposed to sole-wielders. Sole-wielders, and -particularly- sole-wielders wielding polearms, are and always have been severely gimped in skillgain simply because, where your sword + shield fighter is doing (I'm making up numbers) 5 hits per minute, getting 5 chances to gain, and your sword + shortsword dual-wielder is getting, say, 9 hits per minute, your polearm sole-wielder is getting... maybe 2. There's no system of compensation for this; a chance is a chance is a chance, and if you get less of them over a period of time you will gain less skills, for a given intelligence, and that isn't really very fair. Sole-wielders aren't supposed to be stupider just by virtue of hitting more slowly, nor is the skill supposed to be more difficult than swords, but that's how it comes off.


This is true, but doesn't have as significant of an effect as one might think. At present, I'm pretty sure the highest-skilled combat characters in the game are sole-wielders.

Irklies wrote:
As to hide, well. Do we need to ask what's wrong with a command that can be used by anyone at any time for a 100% guaranteed invisibility cloak against wildlife?


You tell 'em, sister.

Hyriana wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen this happen IG. Not sure if that means it as removed or just the things you actually use 'throw' at aren't big enough to have them get lodged in?


I've never actually seen a thrown weapon do enough damage to lodge, they usually drop to the floor. Maybe that was this being fixed?

Hyriana wrote:
Touching on the other point, I've always heard that trying to use sole wield at all without massive strength is flat out not worth it.


This is actually the opposite of true. Funnily enough, in a purely statistical sense, the lower your strength, the better sole-wielding a two-handed weapon is for you. The higher your strength, the better dual-wielding is for you. The reason behind this is flat damage boosts and wound thresholds and a lot of complicated math, but you should probably take my word for it. Of course, strength is so critically important (unfortunately) at the moment that somebody that does something in combat WITH high strength will pretty much always be much, much better at it than somebody who does it with average strength.

Hyriana wrote:
Or trying to wield just one weapon in one hand nothing in the other as an evasion person. I guess because the latter gives a dodge boost, which doesn't help in weapon combat?


I've never heard of this 'dodge boost' but if it's a thing, it's a poorly-thought-out one. Dodge does only really effect your evasion when you're unarmed, which would massively defeat the purpose. I don't think there's a use-case where sole-wielding a single-handed weapon is a viable alternative to sole-wielding a two-hander. Especially given that single-handed weapons can't be used with ward? Maybe grip works around that, haven't really bothered testing.

Hyriana wrote:
That and it's always been said that sole-wielding a two-hander is underutilized and is actually as good as dual-wield? Anyone know the reason this is true?


Sole-wielding a two-hander actually isn't especially under-utilized, but it's certainly not as good, or as versatile, as dual-wielding. Dual-wielding literally does everything and it does it better than sole-wield. The only thing sole-wielding a two-hander has over dual-wield is that two-handed weapons have higher base damage (which is only statistically significant if you're average/lower strength) and that ward has some really creative uses in obscure situations.


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Hyriana
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:35 pm      Reply with quote

My primary experience with this was in Atone where I tried to do a single-wield fencer and basically got told how horribly dumb that was. But at the time I was told there was a boost to 'evasion' for just using a single weapon in one hand. Whatever that means, exactly.

All of that said, having dual-wield be better for a high str character seems... really awkward. At least in the sense of the usual trope of One Big Hit vs the lots of tiny hits your lighter fighter will deal. Natural armor totally negating low enough damage levels sort of stops that entire tactic, I'm assuming.


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crayon
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:45 pm      Reply with quote

Right.

Which is where one big hit gets better for people with lower strength, since it's the only reliable way for them to get past armor and land a significant chance of clocking a reasonable hit.

With high strength it becomes more like tons of big hits than lots of tiny hits.


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Lowdy
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:05 pm      Reply with quote

I know severalPCs that solewield 2 handers actually! Including myself. It's a very versitile skill that I think is under used. But, you can deal some massive damage when done correctly.

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Matt
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:05 pm      Reply with quote

IDK I've really loved sole-wield since ALPHA. I think I've had like one d-wield PC during all my combat PCs. It's just great to have to span strike head with while two-handing because as soon as one hits the fights over. Sole-wield might be useful in obscure situations only but those situations are usually pretty life and death, dual-wield doesn't have that kind of safety net if you really get into some shit. Why sole-wield should be every solo sneaky scav guys second skill choice.

D-wield might be more versatile and have nifty more widely used commands but I really don't think it's 'better' then S-wield. Unless you have peak or above str. Strike head>bash in my opinion vs the different weapon types.

This all really depends on what kind of PC you're rolling and how you place your stats though as well. It's pretty debatable if one is really better.


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crayon
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:42 pm      Reply with quote

Strike sets you off-balance dog.

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Matt
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:03 am      Reply with quote

And?

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