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irkallia
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f--- you that's my fish and i'm having sex with it

Post Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:23 am      Reply with quote

Hyriana - you've never seen it because the ability to lodge weapons got taken out for this very reason. I'm not entirely sure if it was simply lodging that was taken out, however, or if they simply capped the damage to 'beneath what would cause lodging.' If there's a damage threshold going on, then that'd be why they do no damage - otherwise, maybe the damage could be upped.

Also, the fact that 'many of the highest level combat players use sole-wield' does not in any way invalidate my argument. The highest level combat players are more likely to be those with squillions of hours to burn on grinding skills, and with those squillions of hours usually comes the tendency for those people to be much better at navigating combat and code OOCly than your average joe. The way it is now, if you put two PCs with equal stats side by side and make them grind in the exact same way for two months straight, the one with dwield/smaller weapons will have the greater gain, and that doesn't make sense from a game balance perspective.


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Lowdy
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:26 pm      Reply with quote

IDK I got high sole-wield faster than I had gotten the high dual-wield.

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crayon
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:04 pm      Reply with quote

Irkallia wrote:
Also, the fact that 'many of the highest level combat players use sole-wield' does not in any way invalidate my argument. The highest level combat players are more likely to be those with squillions of hours to burn on grinding skills, and with those squillions of hours usually comes the tendency for those people to be much better at navigating combat and code OOCly than your average joe. The way it is now, if you put two PCs with equal stats side by side and make them grind in the exact same way for two months straight, the one with dwield/smaller weapons will have the greater gain, and that doesn't make sense from a game balance perspective.


Oh, I agree entirely, but I'll note that with how skillgains work, the overall time isn't effected quite as much as you would think. I wasn't trying to say it wasn't the case, so much as I was pointing out an oddity. However, a character's dex and intelligence have a much higher impact on skill gains than things like that. So much so, that I think the difference in gain speed is exceptionally difficult to actually notice, until you're hitting really high tiers of skill where things tend to stand out a bit more sharply. Which, actually, makes things even less apparent, because almost nobody can actually GET to those levels, where things like that become more readily apparent. Overall, my concerns with those two skills are more related to power balance, than anything. But you still have a totally valid point, with regards to how things codedly work, it's just a question of degrees of imbalance. I'm not sure how the code could be altered to work in a way that remedies that minor and temperamental imbalance without setting off a few dozen other things. It also ties into attack speed code, which in my experience on most MUDs, is nearly impossible to touch short of a full rework.

Matt wrote:
And?


Being off-balance wrecks your offensive/defensive rolls. The only reason you're likely to have seen damage spiking is because of face shots and an oddity in coverage by helmets. Against anybody with a helmet that covers the face, using strike is just going to gimp you statistically.


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Matt
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Builder

Post Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:18 pm      Reply with quote

You get a large multiplier for head/neck/eye and is totally worth the negatives when you get a good mod or severe, especially while using bludgeon with sole-wield.

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Brainwright
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Post Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:51 pm      Reply with quote

First suggestion : For the love of god, sanitize the combat messages.

I mean make them consistent so we can discern attacker and attacked at a glance. Attacker goes on one side of the line, defender goes on the other, and all is right with the world.

Remove random weapon fumbles and trips. This is the sort of thing that should only happen when a player tries something, and a random occurrence kills my confidence whenever I get into a fight.

To be clear, I have no problems if these penalties happen when the player tries to use a skill and fails.

I would also suggest some way of moving an attacker from the room so that a group of defenders and push away an attacker. This lines up nicely with my longer-term goal of granting more options to combat than simply killing the opposing side.


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Brainwright
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:32 am      Reply with quote

Stealth is a sticky pickle. Technically, the Lunar Plains are a terrible prospect for stealth. No cover, flat plains, and generally clear air leave few options besides wait until you don't see anyone.

Which is how I hear things are done now.

Would it be better fold sneak into hide, and leave traps as the complement to stealth? Should stealth gameplay be a mixture of remaining unseen and diverting pursuit?

Sounds like fun to me, but you'd need to add more than the current selection of traps. Something like a bag of smelly nastiness might disable an animal's ability to track you, but is a pretty clear sign for a human pursuer?

Ideally, I would like to see a byzantine system of utility tunnels built one day and gate access through them using the climbing skill. Here, stealth would be a matter of mobility and memorization.

The tunnels themselves would be largely generic, winding, and twisting to leave players feeling lost. Paths could be made out in light, leading other PCs onward through the dark to useful destinations. It could be a task for players maintain a series of lights. It could be awesome!

However, one thing that would go well with any change to the to stealth would be an upgrade for awareness. As it stands, the information one has is limited, and something to grant a bit more information about your surroundings would be immeasurably valuable to stealth play..

I'd suggest a hearing-based skill to have a chance to hear what's going on around you. Be it the sound of footsteps coming from the northwest, or the chittering of beetles coming from all around, it's something we can add that makes sense and gives one a realistic idea of what's happening.

Just a cool idea for implementation : have the number of sounds you can hear depend on skill level, so that often-repeated actions will cover up rarer ones, like guards in the Market or the sound of the wind in an old factory.


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Brainwright
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:35 am      Reply with quote

Oh, and by the way, hide doesn't protect you from animals at lower levels.

I've tried, it wasn't fun.


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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie

Post Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:48 am      Reply with quote

Lowdy wrote:
IDK I got high sole-wield faster than I had gotten the high dual-wield.

Base statistics proves Irkalia's argument right. If you want to argue that the same circumstances will, with less chances, provide greater growth than those with greater chances, it's slightly silly. Dual wield and smaller weapons proc more chances of growth. That's all she's saying, and it's an inarguable fact of dual wield that it provides more chances to hit than sole wield, and that larger weapons hit slower(help compare).

Again, as always, the plural of anecdotes=/=data. It's a statistical fact she's putting forth, and one that doesn't entirely make much sense.


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It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
crayon
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:07 am      Reply with quote

grandpa wrote:
Lowdy wrote:
IDK I got high sole-wield faster than I had gotten the high dual-wield.

Base statistics proves Irkalia's argument right. If you want to argue that the same circumstances will, with less chances, provide greater growth than those with greater chances, it's slightly silly. Dual wield and smaller weapons proc more chances of growth. That's all she's saying, and it's an inarguable fact of dual wield that it provides more chances to hit than sole wield, and that larger weapons hit slower(help compare).

Again, as always, the plural of anecdotes=/=data. It's a statistical fact she's putting forth, and one that doesn't entirely make much sense.


Right up until you consider cooldowns, and most of the statistical relevance disappears because that variable has a much more significant effect then the time it takes to attain a single skillgain, at levels where such a thing is even predictable or realistically attainable. Is all I'm saying.

Statistically and inarguably true? Certainly.

Statistically relevant? Not especially, given other variables.

Relevant enough that solutions ought be considered? By all means. But I can't rightly think of a valid solution. Maybe an alteration of the odds of picking it up, but that still doesn't quite cut it, as it would have to be fine-tuned to account for things like agility, specific weapon type, and dual-wielding or not.

Any ideas? 'cause I ain't got none. At least not any that are plausibly doable, and efficient with regards to difficulty versus reward.


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Nedinu
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:38 am      Reply with quote

Give a slight penalty to deflect when using two weapons. Makes sense by itself since you can't brace against attacks as easily as if you were using two hands on one weapon.

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Featured artwork used on Parallel RPI given permission for use by original artists macrebisz and merl1ncz.