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crayon
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:55 pm      Reply with quote

The problem is that the game engine is designed to do two separate things which, in game design, are known to combine for poor results.

Specifically, flat Damage Reduction and any sort of scaled Attack Speed. I should think at this point the reason the two don't work together and create game-breaking results when they are is fairly apparent.

At the same time, the degree of variance in attack speed isn't enough for it to matter TOO much, if it weren't for Strength hitting a ridiculously comfortable window where its boosts wind up multiplying your dps by 2-3-4x with its (also flat) boost.

I think most of this could be fixed with adjustments to bludgeon somatics for balance, followed by an across-the-board audit of weapon damages. The problem is that strength would remain (and probably always would) king, as far as stats go, for offering such a tangible impact on, well. Tons.

Barring an overhaul and restructure of stats, which would be painfully messy, I'm not sure there's a way to fix that.


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Lowdy
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:17 pm      Reply with quote

I keep hearing that bludgeons are overpowered.... but what I don't understand is why? It does the least damage out of weapons, (besides knives of course). They are faster than all other weapons, but knives. I have compared all the weapons to their counterparts and think that longswords, for their metal requirement, might be the strongest weapons. Solewield a greatsword that's over five feet long and it takes half a bar of metal. That's less than a 1 handed bludgeon which requires a full bar. One handed longwswords also only require half a bar of metal. Also, something that takes so much metal..... how is a 2 hander bludgeon take 2 bars of metal and is equal to damage and faster than a 1 handed longsword? It doesn't really add up.

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Chazz
Cute and Cuddly Coder



Post Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:00 pm      Reply with quote

Because the related trauma negates everything else. You can sit down and bind a bleeder, if you get a fracture off bludgeons you're done for 1-3 OOC days. I keep hearing you say bludgeons aren't OP, and I'm mostly thinking it's because you use them and don't want them to be altered.

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Hyriana
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:04 pm      Reply with quote

I think the major part of his complaint is the discrepancy of materials used between swords and bludgeons. If I'm reading correctly, anyway. All swords taking the same amount of metal, regardless of size, is kind of weird.

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Chazz
Cute and Cuddly Coder



Post Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:45 pm      Reply with quote

It was already explained in chat, if I recall. A sword is nowhere near as dense, thick, or heavy as a hammer. Swords are meant to be light, hence less weight. Bludgeons have to be heavy, hence more weight.

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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie

Post Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:25 pm      Reply with quote

Most materials requirements haven't ever mattered, given that it's essentially a one-time buy for an almost(if not) permanent good that will outlast most PCs, Lowdy.

Re; bludgeons being heavier, you don't need a sheath for bludgeons, which slightly balances the weight issue.

Bludgeons aren't OP, Chazz, so much as they are just obnoxious to be on the receiving end of. PVP doesn't last long enough(see: The Gates) in this RPI for somatics to matter. It lasts one day before it escalates to total war/shock-and-awe tactics by one or both parties, or else is a singular figure going 'rogue' and dealt with in an equal amount of time.


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Lowdy
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Post Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:08 am      Reply with quote

Chazz wrote:
Because the related trauma negates everything else. You can sit down and bind a bleeder, if you get a fracture off bludgeons you're done for 1-3 OOC days. I keep hearing you say bludgeons aren't OP, and I'm mostly thinking it's because you use them and don't want them to be altered.


Actually no, the reason I don't think they are OP Is because anyone wearing leather armor or meshes will not get a broken bone. I have been sparring with real weapons for roughly a month and a half with.... I could say 4-5 different people and never broke a bone (given my PC's stats I'm surprised). I have given a concussion once, but that's it. Also, wildlife have a natural armor, so I have never seen myself break a crocs bone either. I have seen them get a concussion... maybe 1 time out of every 30-40 creatures I have killed that don't die in 1 hit. I just think that the view on bludgeons isn't all that bad given that they less damage than everything besides a knife, (although a titon knife will do as much damage as a manon hammer)

Hyriana wrote:
I think the major part of his complaint is the discrepancy of materials used between swords and bludgeons. If I'm reading correctly, anyway. All swords taking the same amount of metal, regardless of size, is kind of weird.


This is the majority of my complaint yes. When it comes down to a weight/damage/speed ratio, this makes literally no sense. On top of that, greatswords and longswords AND shortswords have 0 difference in metal requirements. Makes me think that either the greatswords are rediculously thin, or short swords are like the width of my hand in thickness alone.

grandpa wrote:
Most materials requirements haven't ever mattered, given that it's essentially a one-time buy for an almost(if not) permanent good that will outlast most PCs, Lowdy.

Re; bludgeons being heavier, you don't need a sheath for bludgeons, which slightly balances the weight issue.

Bludgeons aren't OP, Chazz, so much as they are just obnoxious to be on the receiving end of. PVP doesn't last long enough(see: The Gates) in this RPI for somatics to matter. It lasts one day before it escalates to total war/shock-and-awe tactics by one or both parties, or else is a singular figure going 'rogue' and dealt with in an equal amount of time.


As for this, yea I can understand that but when a PC dies, the weapons get handed down or picked up by indies. As most weapons are manon/magnon/titon, I think that materials used for 1 weapon should be high/lower. I understand bludgeons are meant to be heavy. Sort of funny how they are the fastest just below a knife. Do I think bludgeons are good? I like them. I have compared them to typical armors worn, and there is a minute plus side to bludgeons. But that still doesn't add in the fact that bludgeons (besides the pick) Don't give bleeders and their only good factor is that they do a concussions maybe .01 percent of the time. I have only seen broken bones on people who have 0 armor in that location, except for the recent wildlife that has given a broken bone.... but I don't that that PC was wearing a mesh either. I could be wrong on that factor as it was really late.

I hope no one takes this as me nagging or anything, but I wanted to lay my concerns flat out on the table and see what other people thought. I like to know if what I have looked into is good/bad/ugly and why. I would appreciate it!


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Matt
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Builder

Post Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:32 am      Reply with quote

What I'm getting out of this is dice rolls on specific weapons vs armor need to be changed.

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crayon
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Post Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:29 pm      Reply with quote

grandpa wrote:
Bludgeons aren't OP, Chazz, so much as they are just obnoxious to be on the receiving end of. PVP doesn't last long enough(see: The Gates) in this RPI for somatics to matter. It lasts one day before it escalates to total war/shock-and-awe tactics by one or both parties, or else is a singular figure going 'rogue' and dealt with in an equal amount of time.


The existing PvP culture of the MUD has no bearing on how powerful something is or isn't. As a concussion or a broken bone essentially ENDS THE FIGHT, the power presented there in a one on one situation needs to be taken seriously, regardless of the frequency with which one on one combats are encountered.

Lowdy wrote:
Chazz wrote:
Because the related trauma negates everything else. You can sit down and bind a bleeder, if you get a fracture off bludgeons you're done for 1-3 OOC days. I keep hearing you say bludgeons aren't OP, and I'm mostly thinking it's because you use them and don't want them to be altered.

Actually no, the reason I don't think they are OP Is because anyone wearing leather armor or meshes will not get a broken bone. I have been sparring with real weapons for roughly a month and a half with.... I could say 4-5 different people and never broke a bone (given my PC's stats I'm surprised). I have given a concussion once, but that's it. Also, wildlife have a natural armor, so I have never seen myself break a crocs bone either. I have seen them get a concussion... maybe 1 time out of every 30-40 creatures I have killed that don't die in 1 hit. I just think that the view on bludgeons isn't all that bad given that they less damage than everything besides a knife, (although a titon knife will do as much damage as a manon hammer)


You do realize that this is the same rate of success you see on bleeders, right?

Moreover, the bit about leather armor is off the mark. The highest AC armors in the game are designed for stopping blades or bullets. Plated armor, for whatever reason, is most vulnerable to bludgeons. Not only do bludgeons have fight-ending somatics. THEY TEAR THROUGH THE ARMOR MOST PEOPLE ARE WEARING. The armor that's designed to be strong against bludgeons is abominably bad.

If you're sparring with oqual weapons in leather armor, you should be seeing more broken bones and concussions. If you aren't, it's probably because the other person has ridiculous constitution, or you're significantly out-skilled.

While yes, I do think that weapon damage values need to be audited... we can't really do that until issues with armor and bludgeon somatics have been brought in line. If the damage values on bludgeons as they are now were boosted, nobody in their right mind would ever use a sword again. As it is, it's still clear cut that bludgeons have a significant edge. (Haha.)

Lowdy wrote:
Hyriana wrote:
I think the major part of his complaint is the discrepancy of materials used between swords and bludgeons. If I'm reading correctly, anyway. All swords taking the same amount of metal, regardless of size, is kind of weird.

This is the majority of my complaint yes. When it comes down to a weight/damage/speed ratio, this makes literally no sense. On top of that, greatswords and longswords AND shortswords have 0 difference in metal requirements. Makes me think that either the greatswords are rediculously thin, or short swords are like the width of my hand in thickness alone.


This IS a little weird. While I do think that you've been given ample explanation for why a sledgehammer uses more metal than a greatsword, the discrepancy (or lack thereof, really) between material costs for different swords is kind of bizarre.

However, I also think that there's a long-term plan for auditing, fixing, and adjusting all of the resource requirements, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Especially considering that:

grandpa wrote:
Most materials requirements haven't ever mattered, given that it's essentially a one-time buy for an almost(if not) permanent good that will outlast most PCs, Lowdy.


Is dead on.

Matt wrote:
What I'm getting out of this is dice rolls on specific weapons vs armor need to be changed.


It's a lot more complicated than that. (Re: everything that's been said about somatics.)

But yes, adjusting how armor works would be helpful too. (And armor's probably going to be on the table to be audited as well.)


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slyviolin
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Sometimes I struggle with my demons. Other times we just fuck and have cheesecake.

Post Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:33 pm      Reply with quote

Make small blade a viable option please Sad

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