Navigation


Home
 
Register a new account  
Log in to view your messages  
An Economic Proposal
Forum Index   Θ   PRPI Public Development

Reply to Topic Create a Topic
Hyriana
Registered



Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:54 am      Reply with quote

I've had this rattling around in my head for a while and since I heard Crayon wanted to redo turf quests, I thought I'd put it out there. This covers a lot more than that, and is probably beyond the scope of what is possible, but here goes. If you're more interested in how I'd change turf quests just skip down to "But what about things that don't require massive coding?".

The idea is to try and set a somewhat even base to the economy, so we want to set a level playing field for chips. I'll use some for an example, but the actual numbers might need to be twitched up or down. Every week, the game pays everyone who logs in 10 chips after they play for 1 hour. On top of that you get up to 5 chips for your highest skill. This will represent how the character makes their basic living, doing whatever it is they do, be it hunting and trapping; making clothing, armor or weapons; etc. At the end of the week the game then deducts the 10 chips for living expenses; this could be renting one of Bjork's mandatory Market Guards for a shop, shanty rental, tool upkeep, or just food that your character is assumed to eat when you're not logged in. The extra for your skill are 'profit'. This lets you potentially have more buying power but you need to somehow make up for it before things are due. In addition, players can still run shops or whore or whatever they might normally do in game to make and keep those chips.

Failing to pay back the due amount is automatically taken out from the payment you get next week. So, say you received 15 total chips, 10 from the base amount and 5 from your amazing Cooking skill and the squick-on-a-stick stall you run. But woops, your grill broke this week and you have to spend 7 chips to get it fixed. Assuming no extra outside income, that only leaves 8 to pay back of the 10 for living expenses you need. The next week, you automatically have the missing 2 taken out of the chips you receive, making it 13. But you still owe the full 10 at the end of the week. Yes, you can potentially owe more money than you receive and go into negatives which can lead to some fun debtor/lending RP with other players begging for chips desperately. I'm thinking this might make angry gang bill collectors spawn to attack people who owe a ton of money. Or staff might animate some mobsters, because Mister Crysophase is very upset.

Now this makes more sense for Indies than Families, really. To modify it for Families, I'd want to assign a 'happiness level' to each clan. There will be random things on turf that need to be completed each week. Doing them keeps your people happy and everyone in clan receives the full 10 chips next week. Not doing them starts deducting them, since unhappy dependents don't want to pay up. I'm guessing this would stop at a certain threshold unless we're talking about Families totally dying which I don't think is really in the scope of this. Every Family member will still get their skill based allotment as well, though it's up to each clan if they want to collect that or what. Potentially, yes, this means entire Families can go into debt.

"But what about things that don't require massive coding?"

So, turf quests. Keep them in Southside with one caveat. The family bar quests are in an odd spot since they feel like an easy way for only families to amass a lot of chips, which on the one hand makes sense since they're powerful organizations, but on the other hand kind of rocks the system. Keep them and lower the payments, possibly link their payout to clan happiness, or remove them entirely, I'm not sure.

Aside from the bar quests, I'd like to see two major things happen to the 'free turf' quests: 1) have them require some type of resource or otherwise be dangerous, 2) open them up to everyone. Basically they're split into two types right now, mugging/extortion and assistance quests. For the former, such as the shopkeepers, the prostitutes, the kids, and the gang members, the first three could conceivably already paid protection money to the Coyotes (or maybe they don't like to see a jerk robbing children) who just happen to be nearby. This could spawn 1-3 gang members with poor quality armor/weapons (basically the things available in chargen), and possibly one might have a bad pistol. If they spawn, the mark runs away and all you get is crappy equipment to probably breathe. If they don't, you get chips like you would right now. The gang group might pay the player to get lost or just turn on the player instead and operate basically the same way. I'm thinking these would be available to one player still, since a single desperate person might risk the danger, but would obviously be safer with multiple.

For the assistance quests such as needy slummers or the rescue, they would be 'safe' but require resources of some type. Needy slummers I could see taking two-three people and some materials to complete. The rescue might be soloable, but have the potential for physical/con damage like the hullwork quest in Atone where one gets in a lucky punch before they're driven off and run away.


View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Flincher14
Registered



Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:35 pm      Reply with quote

I dont like the idea of money coming from virtual things your pc does. Getting money at the start of the week for nothing but logging in is not a good way to run the economy.

However on another point, I do think families should benefit from building and repairing things on their turf. Perhaps all families should receive a relatively small tax income that can be adjusted based on the value of their buildings and such on their turf.

I dont like turf quest, What I do like is turf code from atonement. Where a family recieved resources and money from owning and maintaining their turf much in the same way you farm turf quest. Acquiring more turf is a good way to gain wealth. Putting up gates to protect your turf and building on your turf to make it worth more is far more appealing to me.

I also liked that the turf code would spawn mobs to defend family members getting attacked. I dont know if I would still like that since the mobs were a bit op. Instead I think that owning turf should provide alion, plastic, a small amount of chips. MAYBE certain turfs in the southside could offer hides, tech, pipes, coil just by competing to own those streets.

My vision is that if there is 2-3 people online in a clan instead of trying to scav for materials they dont need they could go around and do turf crafts to boost their turf or they could wear down opposing family turfs. Maybe even run into other families doing turf crafts and have some conflict over it.

I know the code probably still exist and just needs tweaks to make it work for rust. The economy doesn't have to be chip based, it should be based off resources, territory and vnpc workforces.

Finally turf code opens the possibility of war that doesn't result in the total destruction of families. In grungetown one war comes to mind where anaxious was fighitng the other families at the southern intersection. Tons of bullets were slung both ways and it was really fun. But neither side could safely invade the other families turf to camp their base due to the npc mobs. At best they could move on one room at a time and slowly convert it to their turf. Inching their way closer to the other families base under a constant hail of bullets for days.


View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
Hyriana
Registered



Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:03 pm      Reply with quote

My understanding is that turf quests, aside from not working, were massively imbalanced because you could log in while clan X doesn't happen to have anyone logged in, no matter how many actual people they had, and just take their stuff with no recourse. And at the same time attacking and taking something that was actually defended was basically impossible.

As far as chip generation, the amounts you gain are supposed to be pretty small overall. So over a long time this could probably lead to inflation /if/ chips given to NPCs actually reentered the economy. Shopkeepers and people who sell things really stand to gain. Though the people with the most money, potentially, I'd think would be people who do no crafts but still produce things people want... so whores.

Like I said, though, the numbers probably need to be adjusted. And maybe equipment made weaker/kits less full so you have to buy more of it, something like that.


View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
kog
Registered



Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:54 pm      Reply with quote

On my phone, this is kind of a placeholder for what might end up being a massive post later on. Current economy is broken for 2 reasons. One is chip accumulation, the other is scav.

Chip accumulation: any family member can earn 1-5 chips if a quest is up. While not a massive amount, it will add up over time. Indies have no hard-coded way to make chips except maybe that work slums craft? Either way, chips out doesn't come close to matching chips in. This leads to a surplus of chips, devaluing them in a real economy. Since this is a non-dynamic, artificial economy? There is no inflation, meaning you can get whatever you want as a family member, as long as you do some light grinding. Chips hold no real meaning as they buy luxury, not necessity. One can survive without chips easily, and they are simple to get? They seem rather pointless to me. I would just as soon delete them, except for shops. So this kind of leads me to my next point.

Scav is currently the real resource of the game. 100 chips won't stop a bullet, kevlar will. Scrap controls literally every aspect of the game, and it wasn't rated for the amount of players we had. 30+ at peak, we obliterated the scav in the world. There was tons of stuff hauled in, and none of it has decayed/disappeared. An even greater inflation took place. Armor is not really destroyed, due to code limits, neither are weapons - whatever is consumed I'd replaceable immediately, or reserves can be drawn upon. Does any family NOT have a pile of scrap at home?

So currently, to primary surplus issues. My suggestion? Cheat and start over. Ditch chips, or severely limit their income, and switch to scrap. Additionally, destroy all family bases and block off the sewers. That alone will remove some 70% of all that scrap sitting around and re-balance things. But more than that is needed. A sink has to exist or it will build again. Make the families collaborate to build a base in neutral ground,make them pay scrap fees to the market group, whatever: just some project that is EXPENSIVE, where you suffer some resource drain. Otherwise we are back to square one.


View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
Flincher14
Registered



Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:43 pm      Reply with quote

Kog is 100% right. Except wiping everything will piss off some people. Combining the families will probably piss off people (not me). Its much harder to get lagato hides which will severely cut back on armor creep. Weapons can still be an issue. The problem is not enough stuff gets used up.

View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
Roadhawk
Registered



We lurk inside your brain, we hide inside your mind.

Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:54 pm      Reply with quote

Flincher14 wrote:
Kog is 100% right. Except wiping everything will piss off some people. Combining the families will probably piss off people (not me). Its much harder to get lagato hides which will severely cut back on armor creep. Weapons can still be an issue. The problem is not enough stuff gets used up.


Pissing who off? I understand there is still a minority playing the game, but unless drastic changes are implemented those of us waiting to return probably never will. =(


View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
Warrior on the edge of time.
Flincher14
Registered



Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:57 pm      Reply with quote

Roadhawk wrote:
Flincher14 wrote:
Kog is 100% right. Except wiping everything will piss off some people. Combining the families will probably piss off people (not me). Its much harder to get lagato hides which will severely cut back on armor creep. Weapons can still be an issue. The problem is not enough stuff gets used up.


Pissing who off? I understand there is still a minority playing the game, but unless drastic changes are implemented those of us waiting to return probably never will. =(


There is a loyal minority keeping the game alive. If they were to be pissed off and leave. The game would never recover without a core pbase to build and grow on.


View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
Chrjo12
Registered



Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:15 pm      Reply with quote

I absolutely hated this in another MUD, but there should be a 'decay' on *armor/weapons. Now, because I hate it fiercely, I vote doing it ONCE to clear out the ungodly amount of extra o-quality and p-quality junk around. As a crafter, it feels like anything I do is pointless. Everyone is outfitted. If they're not, there are junkloads of o-quality armor and weapons lying around. One purge is fine because playerbase is small enough now that the stuff can't immediately be replaced and bars can't be made as easily anymore.

I think there are some other economic changes that will follow from the above, but I think most would be good. Chip sink in more kits/tools. Some other stuff.

I remember being happy when a big name person died in ARPI because their armor would be distributed. Neutral


View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
Roadhawk
Registered



We lurk inside your brain, we hide inside your mind.

Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:22 pm      Reply with quote

Flincher14 wrote:
There is a loyal minority keeping the game alive. If they were to be pissed off and leave. The game would never recover without a core pbase to build and grow on.


I agree with you and commend your staying through the toughest part of the game, but at the end of the day what the minority wants is not enough to keep the game alive. There must be severe changes in order to draw in the rest of the players. Again, there will be changes you guys won't agree with, but if it brings the game up to a vibrant world once again, it will be worth it.

You can not use 'We stayed through it all' as an excuse to justify the direction of the game. I am not saying you are though, I will make that clear.


View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
Warrior on the edge of time.
kog
Registered



Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:30 pm      Reply with quote

With there being PCs in the game who can solo lagatos, I don't think hides are a problem there - it just takes a bit more work than it used to, perhaps. I suggested grouping the families together into one sort of...group, and here's why:

- In Atonement, on the ship, that's how it worked out - everyone was able to cooperate, BUT there were definitely tensions (look at the Misfits v All, Kings v All, etc.) You can have the best of both worlds without being spread across the map. This brings me to my second point...

- Player base is currently kind of small. So let's assume there are 11 people online at any given moment. There are 4 places to hang out, 4 groups to be a member of. So instead of having 10 people you can access, at best you can access half of the places where people generally gather (Family base, Boozer). Now your potential, numbers-wise, for RP? It dropped from 11 to 6, assuming an even spread. There are 5 people hanging out someplace that you can't even get to, so the world feels empty. One of the best things you can do for newbies, to gain bigger numbers? Have numbers. Cutting down our max size online lately to half (or fewer) for a new player is discouraging, and while it might currently make sense RP-wise, I think for a game that shrunk to this size, it's better if the world isn't so large or so divided.

We could stand to lose some bases. Heck, maybe even have an event that determines WHICH base remains standing, give the others an option to try to move in with the last remaining Family (do the Families stick together when the Indies/South Side riot?) or abandon them to their fate - the two left out Families could re-build their own base and sort of combine on market turf, with the eventual goal being 'taking back' their own turf. Could open some doors for resource spending, etc.

To clarify, I'm not saying flat-out 'just go into our stockrooms and delete everything'. But we have a large stockpile, indeed EVERY Family does so far as I'm aware, and being forced to use it up in RP events that bring the game closer together as a whole is, in my opinion, infinitely better than simply sitting on it.

----------------------------------------------------------
Drew a pretty line for you all, going to harp on something new now!

ECONOMY
Since that's the point of this thread, I wanted to go a bit more in-depth about it. Game economy is one of the hardest things to get right, ever. It requires you to somehow manage to line up a vastly fluctuating INCOME amount with some (usually static) COST amount. If your INCOME exceeds your COST, you end up with surplus. When COST exceeds INCOME, you end up with a pissed-off, broke playerbase who can't do anything. Neither of these things are good. Most MUDs I've seen implement what is called a GOLDSINK. GOLDSINKS are basically expenses that exist only to force you to invest in them. This might be a nifty set of armor, a high-quality sword, some new clothes, or even basic curatives (IRE games, especially). Now, it's noteworthy that currently it's super easy to MAKE armor, but super hard to LOSE armor. It's absurdly simple to GET a weapon, not so easy to LOSE a weapon. Etc. etc. This means we have to be more creative with either a) how we handle weapon/armor making, or b) find a way to destroy weapons super-quick. We also need some sort of GOLDSINK for our scrap/chips, otherwise things will keep building. I lay all of this out so that everyone else knows what I'm yammering about, and so maybe my views on the matter will give someone else a good idea and they can tell me why I'm stupid and how x, y, z will do infinitely better and we can all have an awesome game.

Allll that being said, here goes my speech.

Let's re-evaluate scav risk vs rewards (time to heap more stuff on Crayon!) This all takes place in my fantasy world, where Families are all slapped together in a sort of three-way alliance against the Indies, while hunkered together in the last remaining Family fortress.

Delete scavving in the sewers. Half the number of squicks/rats that spawn down there, remove the plague effect from them when cooked. Dying of hunger, while thematically fitting, isn't really a compelling thing from a gamepoint standard. If you're in a real pinch for food, go kill some squicks/rats and eat up. No scav in the sewers means there is NO 'safe' scavenging spot for items, meaning you have to embrace some degree of risk if you want stuff. That in itself will stop a good bit of the scav from coming in so quickly.

Provide more rooms at lab-level difficulty, so smaller groups remain a viable option. I LOVE how the lab works. So very, very much. And it's only going to get better with balancing - so give me moar. Not much more, mind - but just a bit. So even if you're a crappy scavver, you can still find SOME little bits and pieces to bring back for the motherland.

Provide some HIGH DIFFICULTY areas for groups to go through and scavenge, with HIGH QUALITY drops. Bump off the small scrap pieces entirely, add in some tech/mech rewards instead maybe? Just a few rooms that are dangerous to get to, and even more dangerous to leave. I know there are plans to make a slightly harder area, but I'm talking 'kiss your ass goodbye because This Is It' level hard. Where even the tanks want to sneak. Why? Because dying is a draw of permadeath and risking your life for loot is a time-honored tradition. Risk/reward should be a slider scale, with a direct correlation. Sewers are currently an outlier to this, with 0 risk and decent rewards (the best risk/reward ratio in the game, in fact).

Additionally, for a challenge? Maybe release some kind of 'super mob' on an area for a day or so. Even if it ends up being something rotated randomly, this 'super mob' would give incentive to check/explore more than one area at a time - maybe successfully skinning Larry the Legendary Lagato gives two skins instead of one. Maybe the biggest barker you've ever seen has titon teeth that can be melted down. Or maybe you just take some crazy guy out and turn his head in at the Boozer for some sweet chips. Small little reasons to explore keep things from turning into such a grind, encourage crazy people like me to take stupid risks (no guts no glory, baby) and kind of liven stuff up.

I know it's a lot to pile onto one guy, but I'm willing to help how I can and it's sort of a long-term fix anyway; just, these are some things that need to be at least evaluated in the long-term.


View user's profile  Send private message  Go to Top
Display posts from previous:   
Page 1 of 2   Θ   Goto page 1, 2  Next
Jump to:  
Reply to Topic Create a Topic


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Featured artwork used on Parallel RPI given permission for use by original artists macrebisz and merl1ncz.