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Flincher14
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:42 pm      Reply with quote

ROE is really stupid too. I got in major trouble because I was attacked by someone, retreated, then came back 30 seconds later restarted the fight without re-doing ROE. Bam I was like banned. Hated the staff and the way they handled that stupid rule.

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Azmodan
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:59 pm      Reply with quote

grandpa wrote:

RE: Rules, Azmodan, I am just going to say again: rules of engagement don't work. SoI had the same "if you break them you're banned and the person you killed get rezzed" system, and it _didn't work_.


Just because they didn't work on SoI does not mean that they don't work. I played another mud, Shadow Siege, where such measures were put into practice and they did work. They didn't just automatically ban people or anything of the like, they talked with them and tried to work with said players to develop their desire for rp. It's a lack of desire to RP and only a focus on winning through killing that is the issue. Bringing people back to life because of improper pkills does nothing to address that. It's rather like calling for gun control after shootings rather than better mental health help to prevent the shootings in the first place. One treats a symptom, the other treats a cause.

grandpa wrote:

Put that ontop of the fact that SoI had a dozen or more admins to our three...and you're going to find that coming up with Admin-heavy enforcement isn't something that we can work out. This is one of those rare occasions where(thanks to Chazz's wonderful, plentiful work) you can actually rely more on code-changes than you can on RPA wetwork. I agree we're slightly off-topic, though.


There's what, maybe 30 truly active accounts? I think 3 admins could handle such things, especially with the ability for players to report/question/ect... Again, the goal isn't to use bans/punishment/rezzes of people, but to get them thinking beyond the killing. Banning someone should really only be a last resort and in cases where the staff agrees that a person simply is not interested in playing the game that the staff (and players) envision.

Flincher14 wrote:

ROE is really stupid too. I got in major trouble because I was attacked by someone, retreated, then came back 30 seconds later restarted the fight without re-doing ROE. Bam I was like banned. Hated the staff and the way they handled that stupid rule.


I'm not talking about some sort of rules requiring something like you are describing. I'm talking about staff actually encouraging people to have more of a reason to pk someone than, I want their armor, or they insulted me. People, actual people, don't fly off the handle and kill one another because someone else got upset and called them a name or because someone had a nicer car then they do or their suite looked like it might fit them.


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crayon
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:34 pm      Reply with quote

Azmodan wrote:
I'm not talking about some sort of rules requiring something like you are describing. I'm talking about staff actually encouraging people to have more of a reason to pk someone than, I want their armor, or they insulted me. People, actual people, don't fly off the handle and kill one another because someone else got upset and called them a name or because someone had a nicer car then they do or their suite looked like it might fit them.


I think this is essentially our current approach. I'm not sure it's especially effective, but it's what we've been trying.

The problem is that players know there are a couple of problematic players in the group, and their response is to over react and bunk down, never leave clan halls, never leave shops, et cetera.

The reality is that the number of TRULY problematic players is low, they're rarely around, and Chazz and I are more than willing to jump them when they get out of line.

Azmodan wrote:
It's a lack of desire to RP and only a focus on winning through killing that is the issue.


DINGDINGDING! This is ALSO the reason we have people who take the whole not-dying thing to a whole new level, because after all, isn't not-dying just another way of winning?

Especially when you accumulate LOTS OF STUFF from grinding crafts, turfquests, or what have you?

Isn't this ALSO the reason why people exploited the hell out of turfquests to begin with?

Granted, that's all spilled milk, and I can hardly blame anybody for grinding turfquests into the ground.

Our problem, I think, in a nutshell, is remedied with some basic changes to player behavior.

Characters should NOT be played as wish fulfillment. You are not here to have all the mudsex. You are not here to win all the things. You are not here to be the biggest badass ever. You may DO these things. Or ENDEAVOR to do them. But that should just be an ASPECT of your character, rather than their DEFINITION. If the most meaningful aspect of your character's roleplay is who they're sleeping with or have slept with you're doing it wrong. If it's who they've killed or haven't killed you're doing it wrong. If it's what they have and how badass their gear is, you're doing it wrong. If it's how high your skills are, you're doing it wrong.

This isn't to say that 'wish fulfillment' has no place in how one plays a character. It's to say that it should NEVER be the defining aspect of your roleplay. It's also not to say that having one of those endeavors be a key ASPECT of your character's function in the world is a bad thing. If you're playing a prostitute, it makes sense to spend a lot of time engaging in that sort of RP. If you're playing a businessperson, it probably makes perfect sense for you to be trying to horde up resources. But these are still MEANS to an END. What's your character's end goal? Where does your character want to be in a year? Two years? A month? It's not just about WHAT your character does. It's about WHY your character does what they do. This should be fairly consistent.

People get attached to their characters, and that's okay. But they should be attached because there is a STORY that they want to tell through that character. NOT because they HAVE this or that and you don't want to bust your ass getting it again.

People need to reenvision the game as a MEANS through which to tell a story, rather than an END to be achieved. Hoarding chips is not a goal. Hoarding up chips to hire a builder to help you build a shop, or maybe help you build a settlement outside Rust, or ANYTHING REALLY is.

Players should do their best to keep track of what MEANS a character is using and ensure that those MEANS are directed towards an IC END. People should do their best to segregate their own OOC desires for their characters/roleplay from what their character reasonably wants. We are not our characters. Think/feel is probably great for this, because it provides you an opportunity to really explore your character's thought processes, while clearly defining them as the character's and not yours. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean 'find a way to use thinks/feels to reconcile your OOC whims with your character's goals even if they don't fit'.

Basically, I think around... 70% of the problem with PK is rooted in this, which is a general RP problem.

The other 30% is a mixture of culture, code, and other smaller problems that should also be addressed.


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slyviolin
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Sometimes I struggle with my demons. Other times we just fuck and have cheesecake.

Post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:20 pm      Reply with quote

Sorry. I thought the reasoning given behind bullets being less fatal and damaging IG compared to their RL counterparts was due to being made from gold. I just extrapolated from that.

Grandpa, every time you correct me you do it in a way that makes it feel like your talking down to me. I don't know if that's just your style but it makes me feel like I'm a horrible, stupid person. Sad


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slyviolin
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Sometimes I struggle with my demons. Other times we just fuck and have cheesecake.

Post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:20 pm      Reply with quote

Sorry. I thought the reasoning given behind bullets being less fatal and damaging IG compared to their RL counterparts was due to being made from gold. I just extrapolated from that.

Grandpa, every time you correct me you do it in a way that makes it feel like your talking down to me. I don't know if that's just your style but it makes me feel like I'm a horrible, stupid person. Sad


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crayon
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:22 pm      Reply with quote

Which is funny because I'm probably 4x more condescending sounding than gramps. I don't think it's intentional.

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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie

Post Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:28 pm      Reply with quote

slyviolin wrote:
Grandpa, every time you correct me you do it in a way that makes it feel like your talking down to me. I don't know if that's just your style but it makes me feel like I'm a horrible, stupid person. Sad


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziH9St7ajuw

I apologize. This is literally my life. I don't mean it, honestly.


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It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
slyviolin
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Sometimes I struggle with my demons. Other times we just fuck and have cheesecake.

Post Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:08 am      Reply with quote

I know, been warned before and I'm not much of a strong personality. But just the aggressiveness of some of you posts just make me cower a little and just go "Oh.. okay... I'm invisible now so please turn your attention to someone else please." Being newb in pretty much everything its also super hard to ask questions.

I can see, however, other aggressive personalities (maybe aggressive isn't the best label, maybe dominant?) might react by getting their hackles up. Vice versa as well.

Uh, so I'm pretty much saying that uh.. there is a variety of personalities and sometimes personalities clash and it shows and.. I umm...

IN regards to Crayon vs. other individuals in the condescending battle it's like Crayon is the teacher in class that stands up infront of the class and just goes "Y'all stupid fucks. Everyone one of you" it's generalised hatred for everyone. Compared to a teacher singling out one student and saying "You're a stupid fuck. You. You specifically."

In saying that, what is the gun change you are talking about? Vnpc fatalities?


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crayon
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:41 pm      Reply with quote

If I'm that teacher, Chazz must be the one that keeps a flask of whiskey in one drawer and a wooden paddle in the other.

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kog
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:47 pm      Reply with quote

They're in the same drawer because he likes to multitask.

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