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 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:29 pm |  |
| cruelcore wrote: |
| Be the change you want to see. There's nothing stopping you from making a badass warrior-woman that picks on girly girls and punches out chauvinistic pigs. |
As mentioned above, I've already been the change, twice. I'm trying to encourage others.
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:37 pm | |
I prepose taking a step back and rephrasing the point being made here. Directing this as a plea and on the current manner is only going to alienate and point blame on the people playing characters that even come close to fitting these characteristics, and that's going to be extremely counter intuitive. Instead, I'd say we should start a new topic and focus on the benefits and exactly how to go about making and playing a strong female character, as at least the discussion there is less likely to devolve into a flame war.
Beyond that, I generally agree, but I should point out that stereotypes like these -are- going to exist, and should have a place. There are a ton of factors in the way stopping every female character from being full of depth, and that's likely not going to change.
Plus, I've definitely met some females who don't fit into any of the stereotypes and are generally just as boring/jarring, if not more.
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:41 pm | |
And beyond that, I say let them play whatever if they have a good time. Have your character react to them accordingly and strive for IC character development. If you think the character is just to much, then bring it up to staff and let them handle it
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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:53 pm | |
It's unthematic to post-apocalyptic literature in general is part of the problem.
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:55 pm | |
| grandpa wrote: |
| It's unthematic to post-apocalyptic literature in general is part of the problem. |
+1
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starsignal
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just a page in someone's book
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:01 pm | |
I don't think the players of these stereotypical characters are exclusively to blame -- if the players of male characters didn't condone their behavior/characteristics somehow IG, I think we'd see a lot less of it.
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:31 pm | |
Thank you Starsignal.
First, let me say that most of the female pcs I've run into are pretty kickass. It could be a "local culture" thing that varies from clan to clan, it could be my playtimes.... or it could just be that my character puts off the simpering female types.
See that's the thing, and I'd like to point again to Starsignal's post. (I'd quote it, but I'm in quick reply.)
Yes, some players enjoy being aggressively cute because that's what gets their rocks off, and there is really not much one can say about that. The blatant displays of sexuality though? Those are frequently and significantly rewarded.
The situation is not solely created by the soft little ladies who run around batting their eyelashes, it is a mutually reinforced system, in which the hulking slabs of man-meat then fall all over themselves to pay attention to the girls.
YES, some badass butch warrior women would be -great-, and I would love to see them, but it seems a lot to ask that it happen solely on principle. Reward the scarred up, grunting broads, with the same fanatical devotion and maybe people would be more interested in giving them a try.
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:41 pm | |
| Blue wrote: |
| YES, some badass butch warrior women would be -great-, and I would love to see them, but it seems a lot to ask that it happen solely on principle. Reward the scarred up, grunting broads, with the same fanatical devotion and maybe people would be more interested in giving them a try. |
See, I'm not even asking for them to suddenly all become badasses. Just to consider making stronger characters across the board. Physical appearance isn't even the issue here. It's one of behaviour. Sometimes, the two tie-in.
For what it's worth, since I guess it's not known to everyone, I was pof Bet, and Elizabeth.
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:52 pm | |
| cruelcore wrote: |
| If we assume it's the same as earth, where the average female is smaller and weaker, it's probably understandable that the majority of badass warriors would be male |
I don't think the OP meant "on the Moon there is no sexual dimorphism." I think they meant "on the Moon nobody, even fragile little ladies, can afford to be helpless."
Wow, okay. At first I was going to say "Gee, Aken, you don't know me, so you can't possibly know how completely seriously I take these issues, and yet -- I think maybe you're in the wrong clan?" But having seen the responses to this post, by the end I find I'm closer to being with Aken, because of all the strange resistance.
I've seen several badass chicks already and Throttle's post was pretty convincing (and heartening, thank you!) but I think a few things might be worth saying/adding/reinforcing.
First of all, if you're a female player (or just playing a badass female PC) and you're headdesking over the way the male PCs fawn all over the damsels in distress: I hear you. This is a problem in every game I've ever played, because it's a problem in real life. I could write a fifty page dissertation on how real and alive and in-your-life sexism is right now that would break this form, but I won't (unless someone, for some reason, wants me to  ). What I will say is that it is both a men's issue and a women's issue, and both male PCs and female PCs have to reflect a concerted interest in NOT carrying all of this baggage over into the game in order for things to be different in Rust than they are in real life. On a more encouraging note, I will say that certainly this has happened about other issues -- for instance, in Rust if you're a male PC with serious boy-boy homophobia issues, you're in the minority and look a little silly, which is not at all the overall climate of real life at this moment. So, good for us, WE CAN DO IT.
It's complicated somewhat by the fact that Rust is a very sexy place, and people who want to make a sexy female PC don't have a lot of real life images to draw from that don't involve also being dainty and helpless. Traditionally (and I don't mean to suggest that I have any love at all for tradition), female sexuality has been a game of creating a vacuum into which men are sucked, rather than a game of directly approaching men that are desired. This means that, generally, aggressive women, and particularly women who are aggressive about their sexuality have tended to be rare and looked down upon, rather than held up as glorified iconic images.
This is more or less puritanical bs, but it's there and it's made its mark on all of us, no matter who we are. If someone wants to play a sexy female PC, the only real image of an assertive, powerful sexy woman they have to model themselves after is a villain, actually, the femme fatale that brings about the downfall of the noble-but-weak male hero, who would have been fine if it hadn't been for the siren call of dastardly daughters of Eve.
This is unfortunate, because it's a completely valid choice to want to make a feminine sex bomb (just as it's a completely valid choice to want to make a masculine sex bomb), it's just incredibly difficult to do so without falling prey to these stereotypes. It would help, though (thank you, starsignal), if male PCs demonstrated a preference for female sex bombs who were direct and self-sufficient over female sex bombs who cower helplessly and waggle their eyelashes to be rescued.
Lastly, I don't know that it IS more excusable for male PCs to be modeled on hulking stereotypes of masculinity. Yes, the Moon is a harsh and difficult place where people have to be tough to survive. In real life not everybody has the physique to be a brute, and the people who don't find other ways of surviving. There is more than one way to be tough, and the problem with succumbing to these male stereotypes is that it also reinforces the traditional way of relating to female (and other male) PCs. I'm not saying no male PCs should be brutish, or if they are that they're necessarily a no-brainer stereotype, but it's quite easy to fall into the same old ruts without anybody ever complaining. This is just as much an area that needs addressing, imo, as the issue of stereotypical female PCs.
I will reiterate: Sexism and gender stereotypes inundate all of us players, as real people in the real world, all the time. If we want things to be different in Rust, we need to make a concerted group effort to oppose and betray those stereotypes, as much as we possibly can. That's the only way it will happen.
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| I would prefer not to. | |
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:58 pm | |
I totally agree with you Aken, I just feel that it is equally urgent that the situation in which the wilting flowers get all the cookies be addressed.
At this point I feel that it is as much the responsibility of the players of men to demonstrate that they -want- to interact with strong women, as it is the the players of women to create strong women for them to interact with.
That said, you're entirely right, we need the female PCs to step up and set a precedent, otherwise there's nothing to encourage.
I simply suspect that some may feel they're going out on a limb, and perhaps playing something they aren't comfortable with, and if they go ahead and do it, and are subsequently ignored in favor of the ultra-femmes, it's not going to work out in the long run.
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