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 Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:30 pm |  |
On behalf of pof James:
The big groups aren't really a matter of safety. They're a matter of trying to involve people in something, as opposed to giving them nothing at all. Sometimes it's scavenging, sometimes we try and come up with something to mix it up. The balance of numbers for these trips hangs with the New Guard or Reds, generally. Recently, there have been ten to twelve New Guard characters present for runs, all well-armoured, and I'm sure this group could accomplish a bunch of stuff by itself. Except then I'm excluding large swathes of the rest of the playerbase from getting to go do and do anything themselves, and instead consigning them to sitting on their thumbs. The balance of numbers swings back and forth between the NG and Reds somewhat, too. Were either of these big groups to just go and say 'Nope' to the prospect of others joining in on their activities, they may as well be just pissing on other players' fun, never mind what their characters might think. At least, I assume so. People log in for and join in on this stuff, so I assume it's what they want to do.
Quite what staff-- or Throttle, at least-- expect me to do about this is quite beyond me. Bluntly put, Block 9 would be starving, but for the Metro and that the other two Families take Block 9 along on trips. Sometimes, the Guard and Reds can only put out about eight PCs a piece. When three lagatos right outside the gate is a real and common prospect, and getting to the factories routinely requires fighting with about six of them, eight PCs is not enough, so banding together even for that is sensible.
Of course, we don't have to go out. We certainly don't. I'm disinclined to, because a majority of people clearly hate these trips. I'm asking them for what they want, because there's only so much I can concoct for all these fighty-types to do.
As for conflict between PCs? I see plenty of tension. I have no wish for a repeat of the sheer awfulness of the first three months of Grungetown, or the Westside-Anaxios war/curbstomp, or the frankly absurd in-fighting aboard Atlas. Those were terrible. They were happening for nonsensical reasons. They all led to general bitterness or frustration and players quitting the game. Conflict doesn't need to involve rampant and often random death of every PC on the other side. That's pointless and frustrating for all involved.
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:36 pm | |
| Rome wrote: |
| caellyndria wrote: |
People who don't wanna engage with people outside their mold, people that want to ignore people's emotes directly, people that just aren't multifaceted in a way where it's showing externally. And that's going to burn people out mass-style.
Immerse, immerse, immerse, I don't care what boring thing you're doing, try to be creative and make an effort and feed off of each other. Take any hook you can get if you can't make one yourself and just run with it. |
With all the spam going on in the window, as well as the length of some of these trips, and for some of the other reasons mentioned above, don't you think people deserve more credit than that?
You must be a very superior caliber of player yourself since you feel this way; do you think some of us are working toward where you are? Maybe you could help the rest of us by thinking up a way to provide some engaging RP during these trips. |
Please don't get butthurt, I don't think I'm better than anyone else. I get bored and have little spells of being worn out too on long trips and I certainly have off days. But this is a constant habit of people that is bleeding into non-scav trip times and events and it's a baaaaad habit to be in. It's sadly ridiculous when I don't even -realize- we have 20 people in a group because 75% are being literal scenery with 0 emotes. A solution to get out of this habit, which I have to remind myself to do, is think and immerse and remind myself by trying to branch out.
The problem point blank with the game is it's not worth fighting over people's personal RAWR 90% of the time. That why I was kind of ehhhh about the Families setting again when the game started. It's stressful for most and leaves people cleaning up others messes a lot of the time.
Also, when there's things that matter for Rust, yeah, cooperation can and should happen, so I dunno. Also people have been doing planning and traveling to try and get into places that aren't scav-related, necessarily, but the areas aren't prepped for PCs, or need admins. Which is fixable, the game is new, I know I'm pretty patient with that, but people I think are forgetting how new the game is and how fast it was put together.
Also, the scav culture is something that came from starting the game fresh with nothing. People are really just now getting to where they can be okay not to go, but it's become habit now or something that's relied on for projects people have. I think it's on the way to dying out for a while, IMO.
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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:36 pm | |
| Quote: |
| The OP is on the right track by asking for input and opinions on how to fix this. The only additional thing that I can suggest, when it comes to the direct issue of responsiveness, is to just continue trying to be the change that you want to see happen. I think that people would be happy to return RP when given a good chance, especially given the monotony that usually is scavenging. |
What is being said is that it is degrees more monotonous to continually try to spice up scavenging/create roleplay -otherwise- when it's ignored over and over again, then it is to roleplay at all on scav runs.
| Quote: |
| Although, sometimes someone might not see good RP as a chance to actually RP, especially when if the opportunity is presented as a challenge or IC criticism to the character. |
I understand you're trying to say something, I just don't understand what: people don't see it as a chance to RP when you're challenging or criticizing them ICly?
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| It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. | |
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wirsindallein
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(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:・ﾟ✧
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:36 pm | |
| Hyriana wrote: |
| Throttle wrote: |
| This in turn is a byproduct of the fact that there's no disadvantage at all to just bringing every swinging dick you can dredge up, and we're employing a solution to that in the foreseeable future. I won't spoil the surprise, but there are some significant changes on the horizon. |
The question is, is it a monster turtle or a sand worm? |
I hope it's space bears.
------------------------------
On a more serious note:
Plenty of people have already hit the nail on the head as to why runs are so uninteresting. They feel pointless, and they're incredibly spammy. For me personally because, as Throttle has pointed out (and as I gripe about on the reg), there is no real conflict, these scav runs seem doubly pointless.
That being said: I try, desperately sometimes, to find people to interact with on runs. I try, anyways, and when I'm ignored by whoever I chose to bug I just hop onto the one person who regularly replies to me...leading to the same old people (insofar as any of my characters can become "old" characters) discussing the same old shit. And that's why I almost never bother to log into the game anymore.
I'm not the sort of person who just complains endlessly and never provides feedback- and you didn't make this thread to ask us to just complain, you were asking about what you (and I assume the other leaders) could do to liven things up. I've already made a thread listing things that I think staff could do to make scav runs more interesting. By the sound of it, they're working on it. Cool. Awesome.
So here's a suggestion for what I think leaders can do: Increase the divide between factions. You don't need twenty people to reach the factories anymore. You don't need twenty people to go to the metro (which is just as good as the factories, actually). The hospital, the apartments, the west factory? All of those are worthless, anyways. So stop going out with other families.
What will/should this do?
First: If you aren't all buddy-buddy with one another, there's a chance of actual conflict happening. Now the scav runs have a purpose. You need those supplies to win.
Second: Smaller group sizes. With less spam, people will probably roleplay a little more. Those trips will actually go faster, because you're no longer waiting on 20+ people to forage, grab their things, remember to stand up after triag, etc. You also get the added bonus of increasing relations within your clan.
Another suggestion:
Think outside of the code. Start planning things that aren't entirely code-supported. Plan events, plan expansion of territory, plan to open an awesome new apartment complex that accepts scrips as payment. Plan something. If you have an actual goal to work for that isn't just "supplies", those scav runs suddenly have far more purpose.
Suggestion three:
Families need gold, right? They need chips from that? Arrange in-family walks. Do those instead of runs. I don't know, it sounds fun. That's just me.
Finally:
Encourage roleplay on runs. How? There are plenty of ways to do this, and you'll need to come up with most of them on your own. Some ideas, though, include promoting the people who roleplay on runs over the ones who don't, giving the consistent doers the cool gear you come across, and otherwise just showing a bit of favoritism in that direction. You don't need to say "Here's this reward, dude, I noticed you were crazy active on that run." Find another pretense, most people will understand.
Really, though, the best suggestion I can give is to start a little conflict between clans so that scav has a purpose beyond skill-ups.
Apologies that this is so rambling.
ETA: Just saw the post Darkblade put up on your behalf. As far as the clans without active leadership goes? Sucks to be them. Your responsibility, as clan lead, is to your clan first. Would a certain clan be starving? Sure. They can deal with that. Would it be unfun for them if they couldn't go on runs? It's time for someone over there to step up and be an actual leader. There's a such thing as being too nice. Stop caring and do what you have to do.
Hell, according to the documentation alone you shouldn't be helping them anyways, right?
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:44 pm | |
| grandpa wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The OP is on the right track by asking for input and opinions on how to fix this. The only additional thing that I can suggest, when it comes to the direct issue of responsiveness, is to just continue trying to be the change that you want to see happen. I think that people would be happy to return RP when given a good chance, especially given the monotony that usually is scavenging. |
What is being said is that it is degrees more monotonous to continually try to spice up scavenging/create roleplay -otherwise- when it's ignored over and over again, then it is to roleplay at all on scav runs.
| Quote: |
| Although, sometimes someone might not see good RP as a chance to actually RP, especially when if the opportunity is presented as a challenge or IC criticism to the character. |
I understand you're trying to say something, I just don't understand what: people don't see it as a chance to RP when you're challenging or criticizing them ICly? |
Yes.
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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:52 pm | |
| Rome wrote: |
| Quote: |
I understand you're trying to say something, I just don't understand what: people don't see it as a chance to RP when you're challenging or criticizing them ICly? |
Yes. |
I'm literally not having any more fun with my PC/any more engaged than when he's miserable, broken, furious, enraged, dismayed, embittered--any of those. To hurt is to live. Conflict is the basis of a lot of roleplay.
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| It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. | |
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:10 pm | |
[quote="grandpa"]
| Kristina wrote: |
| Quote: |
| People should say the wrong thing, someone should get punched in the face, maybe even a couple shots fired over heated words. From what I can tell, this is not happening, or is super hush hush. Tensions should always be running high when Family X works with Family Y. |
Has happened and literally been posted about on the Boozer board. Multiple times.
| Quote: |
Re: Creating fun for combat/scav PCs – See above. Start spreading the hate. Wars have a great way of banding people together, giving PCs purpose, a sense of pride, and accomplishment.
Combat PC’s will have their hands full with shit to do. Scavvers will stick to the sewers, and be super-duper excited when that rare run goes out (between pvp violence). Thus, no boring scav run, and all sorts of new gossip/mourning RP due to PC deaths. |
I can't really think of a 'war' from Atonement that didn't really just suck balls for one if not both sides. They aren't fun. They don't really band people together ICly or OOCly(and if they did we'd probably hear people complaining about 'unbreakable alliances'), and they really aren't as exciting as one might imagine.
People've -tried- to engender chances for interclan rivalry, and these go blatantly ignored by a majority of the pbase. A -scav run- is the perfect chance to -get- this interclan rivalry, because it's got people from every clan. You should be interacting. You should be making it not boring. You should be the change you're hoping to see. Play it as you want it to be.
Clan conflict exists in-game, even between 'unbreakable alliances,' it's just that nobody's bothered to get up off their asses and -do anything about it-. Especially those who would profit the most sit on their asses, whining OOCly and ICly about how they're cut out from things, when they could be capitalizing on tensions that exist very publicly in-game. |
I've seen a few posts in the Boozer, sure. I just haven't seen anything that seemed that.. I dunno, brutal? It all sounds sorta tame. But that's probably just because I'm not present during the thing itself, so miss out on the more intense portions. My mistake!
As to being the change, and tensions in game: totally agree. I just figure some of the more.. uhm.. nervous players might look toward the higher ups, heads or leads or whatever, for a bit of direction there. And again, since you say this is happening, my mistake.
Anyway, was just thoughts, and not coming from insider experience. Carry on, and good luck finding solutions! 
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Bangbang
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Sockpuppet
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:12 pm | |
| wirsindallein wrote: |
ETA: Just saw the post Darkblade put up on your behalf. As far as the clans without active leadership goes? Sucks to be them. Your responsibility, as clan lead, is to your clan first. Would Block 9 be starving? Sure. They can deal with that. Would it be unfun for them if they couldn't go on runs? It's time for someone over there to step up and be an actual leader. There's a such thing as being too nice. Stop caring and do what you have to do.
Hell, according to the documentation alone you shouldn't be helping them anyways, right? |
On behalf of pof Bastian:
I've stayed out of this officially due to the regularly tossed around--now by admins, near enough--idea that there's 'unbreakable alliances'(how OOC of a phrase to complain about--are you concerned that I OOCly have made something unbreakable, or that ICly something developed that's unbreakable? Nevermind that it's neither). But no more.
We are--please do not excuse the language--fucked if we do and fucked if we don't. We're fucked if we do because then we're continuing the boring-ass scavs that everyone still comes on, where we're literally chained to PCs that we cannot get rid of that stand around doing nothing but Nonemoting and hitting Forage, despite the fact that they're so obviously at-keyboard.
And we're fucked if we don't(or even if we do) because people like to spread base OOC rumors about our supposed OOC connection, because if I don't bend OOCly enough I'm going to be told that I don't bend OOCly enough for other people/that I need to be helping the other clans out more because people feel like quitting.
| irkallia wrote: |
| Also to add-- clearly y'all are stressing out at least one of your clanleads, if they're distressed enough about it to get someone to post on the forums for them. Try not to depend so much on clanleads doing everything for you. It makes us pull our hair out in frustration when no one will do anything, including RP, unless prompted. |
This.
People keep suggesting, "Do this instead." It's been done. Exploring? Check. Roleplay for exploring? Check. Turf improvements? Check. Prize fighting? Check. Political jockeying? Check.
The only conflict/fighting that's come up in interclan-stuff has been solely related to "HE HURT MAH FEELINGS" and then shooting eachother over it, and more than half of it has been straight-up suicidal. People are trying. But a lot of people don't feel the need to carry their own weight.
ETA:
Nobody's saying people aren't good enough to do this. Take this -positively-. We're saying that you -are- good enough, and that you -can- do this. Or at least I am. I'm also just saying you aren't even trying.
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wirsindallein
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(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:・ﾟ✧
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:29 pm | |
| Bangbang wrote: |
On behalf of pof Bastian:
I've stayed out of this officially due to the regularly tossed around--now by admins, near enough--idea that there's 'unbreakable alliances'(how OOC of a phrase to complain about--are you concerned that I OOCly have made something unbreakable, or that ICly something developed that's unbreakable? Nevermind that it's neither). But no more.
We are--please do not excuse the language--fucked if we do and fucked if we don't. We're fucked if we do because then we're continuing the boring-ass scavs that everyone still comes on, where we're literally chained to PCs that we cannot get rid of that stand around doing nothing but Nonemoting and hitting Forage, despite the fact that they're so obviously at-keyboard.
And we're fucked if we don't(or even if we do) because people like to spread base OOC rumors about our supposed OOC connection, because if I don't bend OOCly enough I'm going to be told that I don't bend OOCly enough for other people/that I need to be helping the other clans out more because people feel like quitting. |
First off- I never said anything about "supposed OOC connections." I hate to break it to you, but you and the other clan leads could all have some kind of grand conspiracy to direct the way this game goes, and I wouldn't care.
Secondly- Who's bitching that you're not bending enough for other clans? Staff? Given the bitching they've done in this very thread about how friendly interclan relations are, who cares? People on the forums? Tell them to be the change they want to see.
| Bangbang wrote: |
This.
People keep suggesting, "Do this instead." It's been done. Exploring? Check. Roleplay for exploring? Check. Turf improvements? Check. Prize fighting? Check. Political jockeying? Check.
The only conflict/fighting that's come up in interclan-stuff has been solely related to "HE HURT MAH FEELINGS" and then shooting eachother over it, and more than half of it has been straight-up suicidal. People are trying. But a lot of people don't feel the need to carry their own weight.
ETA:
Nobody's saying people aren't good enough to do this. Take this -positively-. We're saying that you -are- good enough, and that you -can- do this. Or at least I am. I'm also just saying you aren't even trying. |
I've already tried to start conflict. Do you know what the net result was? I had the entire playerbase, bar one person, turn against me. Yeah, I'm not gonna bother with that again.
I've already tried to do things, and start things that weren't just pk and conflict. Do you know what I was told/Have been consistently told? Nope. Don't bother.
Maybe it was the clan I was in. Maybe it's the fact that we've reached a point where people legitimately act as if bar brawls, let alone actual conflict, is/are an uncommon occurrence. Maybe I, personally, am just not good enough to do this. Who knows? I'm certainly not going to try anymore. Because if I'm just going to get shot down every time, often and regularly, by everyone including the people in my own clan? There's no point. So fuck it.
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Bangbang
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:36 pm | |
On behalf of pof Bastian:
As clarification, that first paragraph wasn't meant for you. The rest were, sure--and yes, it's ridiculous when two clans get up in arms over a single Independent throwing a single punch at a single clan member.
You've misread the rest of the post, wirsindallein: not talking about starting conflict. I'm talking about emoting at all on scav runs, re: the entire point of pof James' first post at all.
What I'm saying in general is there's standards and flak from all sides, and the opinions and reactions of both Staff and the playerbase, barring a few exceptions, bar from lackluster disinterest to outright hostility(see: 'unopposable alliances'). It's making it harder and harder to want to try to create opportunities.
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