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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie
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 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:34 pm |  |
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Just want to point out that barring a scav overhaul (is that still in the works?) not everybody has equal access to "outside."
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It's a consistent theme that things are fixed by removing the "problem," then eventually adding the "fix." It effects everyone equally, honestly.
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Also, in my experience "outside" seems to involve a lot of people climbing over each other to quick-draw their way into combat, with the same 3 people winning every time and getting to raise their combat skills while everybody else stands around watching. Plus, it seems to create a lot of totally unrealistic situations in which people just want to mow down any wildlife they come across in the vague hope that they might get a swing in.
Is that really what you want to be the required method of skill mastery? Not that I'm saying sparring should be. Like, at all. Nor am I really in favor of 1000 dead squicks littering the sewers because somebody was using them for target practice.
I just think "that character isn't old enough to have better skills than me after I put in hours and hours of grinding gatos on group scavs" isn't necessarily a valid argument for further gimping people who don't have hours and hours to grind gatos on group scavs. Particularly if you're only speculating about what their skills are and how they got there.
Not that there might not be one. I just don't think that's it. |
Sparring's kind of boring/a counter-intuitive to play the game. I'm against it OOCly, so don't mind that it's being nerfed.
Fighting squicks shouldn't compare to fighting lagato grande, and that's just that. If there's a cap on it(is anyone arguing that it should be capless?), which there ought to be, -where- should it be? Heroic? Master? Adroit? Talented starts looking good when people suddenly realize that they're asking to be at 60-69/100 skill-level from fighting foot-long lizards.
I'd put sewer skillgain caps at Familiar, given there's no chance of dying in the sewers p. much.
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| ETA: I think if you're going to bring up "raising that skill that way is twinking" you have to be prepared for the fact that grinding itself is not all that realistic, wherever you do it. The furthest limits of skill gain are almost always going to be the result of somebody considering how to gain skill over what's "realistic." All the people who gain their skills "outside" are playing the same game. |
I think it's a design issue, really, more than anything else. Playing on the SBS Atlas, "realistic" situations and skillgain were pretty close together, in that you were regularly fighting for your life to control an infestation.
It was also an exhausting way to play that didn't draw a lot of folk, to be fair.
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| And yes, it doesn't seem fair to gain "too much" skill without having to be in real danger. But big group scavs haven't really been all that dangerous for a while, apart from some messy flukes, (thanks to the work of the scav leaders who pretty much know what they're doing). The fact that ostensibly there should be danger because of zomg gatos doesn't always mean there is, when 9 (or 12 or 15 or 20) people are all competing to see who will be one of the lucky ones who gets to actually swing their swords this time. |
I think it's beyond ridiculous to compare the burst damage a lagato grande could do with the burst damage a squick could do. You're comparing the nondanger of a squick with the very real danger of "What happens if shit goes wrong outside?" There's been one group pwipe, and 3-4 near pwipes. Just because they haven't happened (1-2 of them due to luck, not skill) doesn't mean they don't exist. You're confusing "this isn't dangerous codedly" with "this isn't dangerous ICly." Codedly it's dangerous. Codedly there's a risk. ICly maybe it's generally safe, but there's always the threat.
Don't confuse those.
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| It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. | |
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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:37 pm | |
And a reply to Crayon:
| crayon wrote: |
| HOWEVER, some skills don't seem to cap out effectively to require risky situations. Notably, scavenge. Butchery. Perhaps hide and sneak? And you know... all crafting skills. |
The risk of crafting comes from failure vs. materials. The reason there's no risk is because there's no dearth of raw materials.
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:44 pm | |
| grandpa wrote: |
| Sparring's kind of boring/a counter-intuitive to play the game. I'm against it OOCly, so don't mind that it's being nerfed. |
I'm not remotely against nerfing sparring.
The original suggestion wasn't specific to sparring. In fact, it wasn't specific to any particular method. Nor am I suggesting any specific current method be preserved.
| grandpa wrote: |
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| The furthest limits of skill gain are almost always going to be the result of somebody considering how to gain skill over what's "realistic." . |
I think it's a design issue, really, more than anything else. |
I agree? I'm just pointing it out.
| grandpa wrote: |
| I think it's beyond ridiculous to compare the burst damage a lagato grande could do with the burst damage a squick could do. |
Er, I'm not.
My suggestion wasn't, "Make skills masterable through fighting squicks and sparring, please!" I actually said so, but apparently not clearly enough.
My point was not that the things currently available in town should suffice to let anyone become a master. My point was that the assertion that nothing in town ever should allow anyone to gain as much skill as things outside, which not everyone has equal access to, is problematic, particularly if the justification is based on speculation.
That, and that I personally think that outside grinding is grinding as much as inside grinding is grinding, and skills will always be mastered by whoever is most committed to grinding. If anything, the ideal solution is one in which grinding anywhere is less advantageous than behaving realistically. But maybe that's a pipe dream.
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| I would prefer not to. | |
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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:46 pm | |
Bartleby: I'm not saying you're saying those things. I'm saying that what you're saying seems likely to achieve those ends, whether you intend it to or not.
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| It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. | |
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:54 pm | |
A good amount of coding in this suggestion, but there could be a sparring equivelants of each melee combat skill. For instance, there's bludgeons and then there's bludgeon-sparring or something along the lines of that.
Now, the sparring equivelant and the normal skill should augment each other in some way like prowess does. Partly because practicing fighting doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good at actual fighting but you'll still have some experience at least, and other part because it'll still make it useful without people thinking it's a twinky way of getting skill. I feel that about 50% of your skill (maybe lower the percentages in higher levels) in the sparring side should be added to the normal side skill checks and vice versa.
It'll let people that can only get their fighting inside the city keep up to par with those on the outside somewhat without actually being as good as them. Not so much the other way around right now, but if sparring becomes more widely accepted through this, an arena fighting culture may pop up that's good for reputation and money, then the sparring side will have benefits as well. But, I may be looking too far long-term for this.
Long thing short, very good fighters can become somewhat good sparrers naturally, very good sparrers can become somewhat good fighters naturally, and otherwise somewhat good fighters and sparrers can become good or very good ones.
And as I noted earlier, the cross-over should become less and less prominent the more you gain level in one skill to make mastering just as hard as it's always been.
A wierd suggestion, so there's probably plenty of drawbacks I didn't think about at the moment, but I feel it solves some things.
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:19 pm | |
| grandpa wrote: |
| Bartleby: I'm not saying you're saying those things. I'm saying that what you're saying seems likely to achieve those ends, whether you intend it to or not. |
I'm not really sure I agree, but I would be equally happy to see "outside" (in some form) become more accessible for groups of different sizes and compositions, too. That's something that I'm looking forward to.
Personally, I haven't found a combat skill gain method yet (sparring, squicks, making a "kill liz/gator" trigger on my MUD client, scavving 5 times a day) that didn't seem jarring and unrealistic when practiced intensively. If you want to be truly competitive in the skill gain game, more suspension of disbelief is required than I can personally summon, it would seem. Which, frankly, makes me somewhat suspicious of people pointing fingers over realism, particularly when their suggestion would be advantageous to them and disadvantageous to their rivals. And particularly when they have ready access to the proposed sole viable path.
Not that bias is bad. Everyone has it. I'm just pointing out the potential.
I don't think anybody can really say that a group scav led by an experienced leader and composed of well-armed and armored combatants is not safer or more controlled than one led by an inexperienced leader and composed of a mix of combatants and semi-combatants. It's obviously IC for the first group to do better in combat, and in combat-heavy areas, and that's obviously why people conduct scavs in the way that they do.
What I'm not convinced of is that therefore no individual outside that context should ever be able to become formidable, ever. Would it be difficult to allow that without opening the door for some twinkery? No doubt. But exactly what is twink-proof about waste scavving?
The more you commit yourself to realism, the more the people committed to skill gain will leave you in the dust. It's kind of a choice you just have to make, unless someone comes up with a system that rewards realism and discourages twinking, which is virtually impossible (or at least requires some serious out-of-box thinking) for a game that's ultimately based on numbers (which all games ultimately are, because computers). It often seems to me like people just prefer their own style of twinking and resent the perceived advantages of other people and their styles.
All I can personally hope for is that access to twinking (grinding if you prefer) is available more or less equally to everyone, for as long as it remains the effective method of gaining skill. Which seems to be important to people for some reason. 
ETA: Sorry, just clarifying my objection. All done now. Not saying I'm Right, but I wanted to be clear, at least.
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starsignal
Registered
just a page in someone's book
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:20 pm | |
| Bartleby wrote: |
| If anything, the ideal solution is one in which grinding anywhere is less advantageous than behaving realistically. But maybe that's a pipe dream. |
lol, we're playing a MUD, gtfo
/sarcasm
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:39 pm | |
I don't believe in sparring at all. Back in the good old days you just got knocked uncon a dozen or so times to get your skillz good.
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Starmonger
Registered
Void Dreamer
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:35 pm | |
Or went and idled in the VR room
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:06 pm | |
Sparring only teaching you to talented sounds fine with me, though I still think there should be some sort of duel option where you can learn past that but must knock unconscious or kill the other person involved. (Bonus points if losing party gets 5 min or something to RP the end of the fight.)
I don't personally see any realism problem with sparring, and personally find objections to it seem to be solely based in anti-twinking philosophy. The OOC fights for best latency and pulling tank on minor hits is pretty ridiculous, and really don't encourage not-afking for people who don't want to bother, especially when stacked with the general anti-throwing mentality.
I agree that those who can't go on runs suffer a lot in that regard. Really, who the hell wants to twink skills in the sewers? Sewer scav is geared for only one person going down there, making your way through the entire sewers takes forever, and squicks/rats run almost immediately.
With skill gain being capped at talented, I don't see any reason why sparring should be a further issue.
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