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grandpa
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Entrenched Oldbie
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 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:46 pm |  |
I'd rather see skillgains in the sewers capped at familiar, and sparring capped at talented.
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irkallia
Guide
f--- you that's my fish and i'm having sex with it
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:12 am | |
I am 400% done with this game.
"Realism?" GTFO.
Y'all make my head asplode. This game is already the grindiest f***ing thing I have ever played in my life (no offense to Malk & co., that's the code they were given), and you all somehow think the way to curb twinkiness is to... make it MORE grindy?
Does it not register on anyone that this might be counterproductive? When you make getting "uber" more difficult, it only motivates people to work harder for it. Which means they're going to be spending more time grinding and twinking, and less roleplaying. If that's what we want, I'm out.
Edit: And seriously, guys, could this come off as any more butthurt? "Zomg somebody played less time than me and got better skills! This is an outrage! We must change the code!"
YES I AM GRUMPY. GO AWAY.
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:32 am | |
Hm, nope, I think it's pretty dumb too that roaming around fighting things that are completely not dangerous at all can raise you to master level status in combat. You don't really /learn/ anything from fighting something that's not a threat to you.
The system is part of the game too, you can't just treat it like some randomly tacked on conceit to RP.
If anything, I'd say this is lowering the starter ceiling so that the way to raise skills after is go out with people and well, RP.
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irkallia
Guide
f--- you that's my fish and i'm having sex with it
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:41 am | |
No one has ever nor will ever gain master skills from fighting squicks. It's part of the code. Already. You have to do progressively more difficult tasks to get to those levels. Already. Get Holmes to dig up the number of characters who -ever- achieved a heroic combat skill in ARPI beta. It's not a long list. I really don't see what the problem is here, other than "so and so leveled up too fast." Well, if you log in for 18 hours a day and have decent int and do nothing but grind... that's what happens. And if that gets rewarded in this game, that's what people are going to do. How about rewarding RP?
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WorkerDrone
Registered
Duke Attitude
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:45 am | |
I think generally, since I don't think it would be horrible bad, capping skill gain within the walls to like...talented, wouldn't go awry.
I however counter the insinuation that people go out to RP. People stay inside to RP. Going out involves being involved in code exchange between environment and players. Is RP possible? Generally, yeah, kindof, in smaller groups, where there's not as much scruff getting in the way of it, but the way the game is set up at the moment (scav-overhaul!) makes small group things very dangerous and shortly lived, without being extremely well armed and supplied and skilled up.
focusing less on encouraging outside the walls interaction and building up what's inside them is advised as opposed to the opposite, until it's possible for smaller groups to get their feet wet without having to pull out within twenty minutes.
What proof do I have? Eight relatively competent fighters stepping out with relatively decent gear and getting sent packing literally one room into the wilderness.
Case and point, but that's all I'mma add.
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:00 am | |
My skills are kind of bad compared to my playtime, to be honest! I probably RP too much. So that's not me.
That said, WD has a point, inside RP is always going to be more immersive than while you're hoping something doesn't walk in and maul you while you try to RP something.
I just think that realism should also be a concern. I feel dirty thinking that I need to go sewer grind, but, well, I probably /need/ to.
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:41 am | |
Since when does realism matter?
A realistic solution would be to have a separate combat skill for each class of enemies, since you will never become a good fencer by cutting down crocodiles just as much as you will never come a good crocodile hunter by fencing with your friends.
To put it more bluntly, I'm certain that at least a good portion of you have done some kind of martial arts and have some idea of how to neutralise a human attacker. Now think about fighting a German Shepard. Sure, it will help that you've mastered tripping a grown man, but not nearly as much as having fought five other dogs before after being instructed by an experienced dog kicker.
I also don't see how sparring suddenly limits your ability to master combat. A boxing champion, even a local one, will absolutely crush any developing nation guerilla veteran, despite never having been in any "dangerous", non-consensual combat and never having killed anyone.
Sure, in terms of game balance, fully reasonable. Realism though? Meh.
The following segment is probably too long. Reader's digest: The fact that only large groups can leave the city makes RP very difficult.
As for going out to RP, that does happen. Although perhaps to only 1/6 of the people present in the group, which is probably the biggest problem PRPI still suffers from. In Armageddon and even in SoI it is/was completely possible to leave the walls with one or two other people and have a reasonable expectation of coming back home with some minor (or not so minor) prey and all your mates still alive and well.
Both ARPI and PRPI, however, aren't built around small groups doing anything. How can you RP, when you need at least six people to head out even into the easiest hostile area? Sure, the leaders of the group might do this and that (though I haven't seen much that either), but if everyone starts spamming emotes or talking the whole trip immediately transforms into a complete mess, not to mention someone initiating combat and filling the entire screen with hit and miss messages. Then there will always be an eager to please medic--or worse, two such medics--who wants to treat the injured and has to walk a very fine line between treating yet another someone, who's roleplaying yet another hardass yet again without any self-preservation instinct, and getting told off for treating without consent and getting told off by someone else for not treating the characters quickly enough before another gato marches in. There's really not a lot of time for RP there, especially if you wanted to do something interesting like setting a bone.
It's really a bit of a problem in my opinion. The crafting system is great fun and allows for some great RP. Everything that is even remotely combat related, not so much. That's coming from someone who solely plays coms in other MUDs.
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starsignal
Registered
just a page in someone's book
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:16 am | |
| edgeworth wrote: |
| The crafting system is great fun and allows for some great RP. Everything that is even remotely combat related, not so much. |
This, I think, is what a lot of us have been trying to say but not getting at very clearly. It's sort of off-topic, but I think it's something that needs to be discussed: why is there a considerable subset of people playing an RPI primarily for the purpose of grinding? That's what those other MUDs are for.
For what it's worth, though, I think the code is just reinforcing a bigger issue with the culture of the game, which is a hard thing to change.
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ApocalypseCow
Registered
Bridge over the River Kawaii
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:09 pm | |
TL;DR: This is more a problem with the system than the players. Fix the underlying system.
Because there's a bigger 'reward' doing it in a game where many people do *not*. Essentially, they see a bigger contrast in achievement around people who measure achievement in less incremental ways. It's not necessarily that they are skill spammers, or can't rp, its just that this is what they have fun doing. It's a far more tangible 'achievement' then waiting over time, and then by contrast, when they can get it up, they can measure even 'further' against people who can't do the same, or just have no desire to.
It's not quite the same achievement when the focus of the game is on grinding or skill-inflation, or at least a large portion of the pbase HAS to succeed in such a way to succeed so everyone does it. The 'reward' isn't so much measurable.
Therefore here, it is rewarded on a multitude of levels. The code rewards it, mostly, they are rewarded by their peers who come to them to do what they cannot (it's an ego boost. Not all rewards are tangible -- case in point, why people mud in the first place, the reward isn't anything tangible usually, other than making a few friends.), by the attention of others when they are superior, skil-wise. It is further aggravated by the divide between IC/OOC.. i.e. realistically, you go to someone who can do what you need done w/ a minimum of waste or who you know is the best at it unless you don't care about the outcome as a player or you have some other reason for doing so, besides 'get X done'.
Anyways, so, code-wise it is/was rewarded on multiple levels, whether combat or anything else -- in fact, most of the people who complain or make noise about it are: people who cant/don't want to do it and people to whom other rewards or achievement besides the numbers game are more important, and they feel should be less important to others.
The big problem comes from the dichotomy of the multitude of rewards that come from playing in such a fashion with the fact that the ideal of the game as an 'rp first' game. If it was, the game would not award a player for engaging in unrealistic play, especially over rp, or the benefit of doing so would be less than it is.
I think the answer then, is that you need to look in the core design of the skill gain system, and change it somehow so the behaviors you desire are rewarded, while behaviors you don't desire are curtailed in some way, either visibly or invisibly to the player.
This is not necessarily an issue with Arpi/Prpi only, it's pretty common in muds overall but it is a pretty persistent and pernicious issue.
ETA: Pernicious because when the rewards for doing so become obvious to others, especially the mass of others who fall somewhere between achievement/social play, they are often tempted to do the same (albeit to less obvious levels), and it can spiral into unrealistic play on the majority of the players to some extent.
While I don't enjoy this kind of play and find it to 'break muh immersionz', I can't exactly blame the players who do enjoy it and engage in this sort of play either, especially not when they are so rewarded by the system itself, the whole system really, including the players who don't do it. You can tell players not to do it, but it really boils down to what they're getting out of it, and a multitude of rewards, coded and otherwise, are generally *why* they do it, so it often has little effect in curtailing the undesirable behavior. And getting upset over it is sort of like getting angry at people for not playing baseball on your basketball court.
Phew. Back to occasional lurkdom.
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:07 pm | |
| ApocalypseCow wrote: |
TL;DR: This is more a problem with the system than the players. Fix the underlying system.
Because there's a bigger 'reward' doing it in a game where many people do *not*. Essentially, they see a bigger contrast in achievement around people who measure achievement in less incremental ways. It's not necessarily that they are skill spammers, or can't rp, its just that this is what they have fun doing. It's a far more tangible 'achievement' then waiting over time, and then by contrast, when they can get it up, they can measure even 'further' against people who can't do the same, or just have no desire to.
It's not quite the same achievement when the focus of the game is on grinding or skill-inflation, or at least a large portion of the pbase HAS to succeed in such a way to succeed so everyone does it. The 'reward' isn't so much measurable.
Therefore here, it is rewarded on a multitude of levels. The code rewards it, mostly, they are rewarded by their peers who come to them to do what they cannot (it's an ego boost. Not all rewards are tangible -- case in point, why people mud in the first place, the reward isn't anything tangible usually, other than making a few friends.), by the attention of others when they are superior, skil-wise. It is further aggravated by the divide between IC/OOC.. i.e. realistically, you go to someone who can do what you need done w/ a minimum of waste or who you know is the best at it unless you don't care about the outcome as a player or you have some other reason for doing so, besides 'get X done'.
Anyways, so, code-wise it is/was rewarded on multiple levels, whether combat or anything else -- in fact, most of the people who complain or make noise about it are: people who cant/don't want to do it and people to whom other rewards or achievement besides the numbers game are more important, and they feel should be less important to others.
The big problem comes from the dichotomy of the multitude of rewards that come from playing in such a fashion with the fact that the ideal of the game as an 'rp first' game. If it was, the game would not award a player for engaging in unrealistic play, especially over rp, or the benefit of doing so would be less than it is.
I think the answer then, is that you need to look in the core design of the skill gain system, and change it somehow so the behaviors you desire are rewarded, while behaviors you don't desire are curtailed in some way, either visibly or invisibly to the player.
This is not necessarily an issue with Arpi/Prpi only, it's pretty common in muds overall but it is a pretty persistent and pernicious issue.
ETA: Pernicious because when the rewards for doing so become obvious to others, especially the mass of others who fall somewhere between achievement/social play, they are often tempted to do the same (albeit to less obvious levels), and it can spiral into unrealistic play on the majority of the players to some extent.
While I don't enjoy this kind of play and find it to 'break muh immersionz', I can't exactly blame the players who do enjoy it and engage in this sort of play either, especially not when they are so rewarded by the system itself, the whole system really, including the players who don't do it. You can tell players not to do it, but it really boils down to what they're getting out of it, and a multitude of rewards, coded and otherwise, are generally *why* they do it, so it often has little effect in curtailing the undesirable behavior. And getting upset over it is sort of like getting angry at people for not playing baseball on your basketball court.
Phew. Back to occasional lurkdom. |
In other words, dopamine.
.(o.o).
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